Tactical support regiment (aka Arty cover clutch)

Sector artillery: defensive ability only affecting a single sector, not a circular area. Simil could be said about OKW assault artillery

I can't see how having to evade a circle rather than a sector is OP.

Close the pocket: requires HUGE planification and execution. Stills allows counterplay (decapping).

Yes, and the counterplay to the Tactical Support Regiment arty is to evade it until it stops.

remove this OP ability

I can't see how having to evade a circle rather than a sector is OP.

as the circle is much larger than the usual sector and additionally round, which means that from the center the edge is equidistant, this is much harder to do

Yes, and the counterplay to the Tactical Support Regiment arty is to evade it until it stops.

that is the counter to close the pocket aswell. but close the pocket has additional counters.....

how did you get strategist with that thinking?

Two ideas that might help:

What if arty cover used the 25-pdrs in the base sector. The cost could be reduced, it could be cast as it is now. To compensate the cost would be much reduced, the AoE of the 25-pdrs would be much increased while active, and it would not stun vehicles. However, this would make a clear distinction between the ability (onmaps) and the FA (offmaps). If that is still too unattractive maybe offer airburst shells with the ability instead.

For the engineers I would like to see the engineers either upgrade to salvage and the commander retain an ability which fired flares on command, either over wrecks or a copy past of the flare ability from the Artillery doc, or as Smith said an added ability once scavenge kits were upgraded that would be contained in the engineers.

Forward assembly still seems bad to me because of how short the range is on the casting, and how munitions hungry it is.

as the circle is much larger than the usual sector and additionally round, which means that from the center the edge is equidistant, this is much harder to do

I've never had any issues with escaping from an offmap ability circle -- there's a reason why people who used to (rightfully) complain about not being able to escape from the Airborne Company P-47 rocket strike have had no issues with it since it was changed to circle targeting. As long as you pay attention to the minimap and move your units accordingly, you should have ample time to get out of the way of this arty ability too. If you have any replays/videos that show such attempts fail because of the size of the targeting circle, you can share those with us.

that is the counter to close the pocket aswell. but close the pocket has additional counters.....

I can't see how each ability has to have two counters in order not to be considered OP -- I've never seen this claim before, if that is your point. Also I listed three other offmap abilities that are only countered by moving out of their area, and they never get called OP because of that.

I will not even respond to that shameful ad hominem attack in the post I'm replying to.

Before addressing the elephant on the room (arty cover), i'll give a brief description of the whole commander.

2CP: Designate command vehicle.
Currently on LIVE, it's been use as one of the ez ways to get constant vision. For the late game, this proves useful for the use of offmaps.
Mostly addressed with WBP (although the design of the ability still should be changed and the recon should cost muni)

4CP: Field Recovery Op. (2RE with scavenge kit)
450mp for 2RE with sweepers and scavenge kit. They are similar to Tank hunter (SU) scavenge kit rather than OKW one.
To make "justice" to the other thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GulOHolWYpc&feature=youtu.be&t=9482
The problem is not the resource gained, the issue is having the sweeper kit not taking a weapon slot. You can still double equipped them with PIATS/Brens (the later till WBP arrives)

4CP: Air resupply Operation.
150muni for AT gun + MG + medkit. Or how the airborne doctrine/air drop from USF should had been (muni instead of mp).

10CP: Artillery Cover
250muni for OP ability.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GulOHolWYpc&feature=youtu.be&t=9256
DISCLAIMER:
-The ability no longer blinds/jam turrets nor crits engines on vehicles. It "injures" the loader. You might ask wtf is this, well it debuffs the reload time (2x).
-You need LOS to keep attacking the units (GG no smoke with OKW)
-It's still broken against infantry, specially support weapons since it suppress/pins you.

Regarding the vid:
Show Spoiler

I'll go back into this ability later.

For 99% of the playerbase this is the complete roster of abilities. But trust me, there's a 5th one.

10CP: Forward Observation Post
Call in Close-Air-Support strafes, as well as recon runs, smoke artillery support, and high-explosive artillery. Cost 300mp/60f. With that cost, limited to environment buildings which can't be repaired and having subpar abilities in comparison to IWIN button, who the hell will bother with it.

Personal baked solution to both problems:

FOP:
-Reduce cost to 200mp 30f (values may change but this is just to give an ex)
-Let it be built on Forward assemblies

Artillery Cover:
1
-Now it's casted from the FoP
-It could be limited (or not) to the range of the FOP casting range. This would made it a more defensive tool rather than IWIN push ability.
2
-Let it be casted from FoP and/or Command vehicle
-Ability get's canceled if the unit/building get's destroyed
-Command vehicle casting the ability must remain immobile during the duration of the skill

Close air support/artillery:
-In case we opt for going just with FoP changes and not command vehicle, either of this abilities replaces Arty cover on the normal 5 commander abilities.

So would the Arty cover damage the command vehicle?

Artillery cover is still too strong. I would suggest reducing the size of the area it covers.

It would be cool if the command post was viable too.

As long as you pay attention to the minimap and move your units accordingly, you should have ample time to get out of the way of this arty ability too. If you have any replays/videos that show such attempts fail because of the size of the targeting circle, you can share those with us.

as i already wrote, the ability hits units that are clearly out of the circle. test it with cheatcommandsmod or watch my latest replay, which you will also find in the replay review section. additionally the attack is pretty much instant iirc

I can't see how each ability has to have two counters in order not to be considered OP. I listed one other offmap ability that is only countered by moving out of their way, and it never gets called OP because of that.

strength/counters is what rather counts. the only other offmap ability is sector thingy in the okw jt doc, and it costs the same i believe, doesnt pin, doesnt give some 2*reload debuff, is not that fast, not that precise and doesnt do that much damage. additionally it smokes the sector after the attack, which imo rathers hinders you than anything. last but not least driving out of a sector is faster, as the distance to the next sector is smaller than the radius of arty cover

I will not even respond to that shameful ad hominem attack in the post I'm replying to.

shamefull? well, it wasnt 100% nice, but come on. you argue without looking at a lot of facts

idk... this commander has its ups and downs... to me its not op at all... just like axis abilities that can turn the tide this is one of them to... when u see te ability...u move out of zone asap. u will be fine just get out of zone. dont stay in zone to prove how op it can be if u let it kill all ur stuff cuz ur not proving nothing but how garbage u are... when u see a ability used if u move early ur fine... like most abilities. axis anti tank straf can be more punishing then this ability or stuka dive bomb... no reason to change 1 ability if ur not going to change all of them. close the pocket will end game sometimes in 5 secs. i say leave things as is ability wise for all factions

as i already wrote, the ability hits units that are clearly out of the circle. test it with cheatcommandsmod or watch my latest replay

I watched the replay and didn't see a single case where Axis armour was clearly out of the circle and hit with the arty. There were a couple of instances (such as this one) where your vehicles were on the edge of the circle (or just backing out of it when a shell was launched), but that =/= "clearly out" of it.

And if what you said was true, I clearly pointed out in my first post in this thread that "As long as the arty ability is limited to specific area and requires LoS" it is okay, so that would be another matter and not a case in our debate whether a circle-based offmap is OP.

strength/counters is what rather counts. the only other offmap ability is sector thingy in the okw jt doc, and it costs the same i believe, doesnt pin, doesnt give some 2*reload debuff, is not that fast, not that precise and doesnt do that much damage.

But none of these features/stats will matter if you move out of its way, which is what you and I were debating in here. Let's not mix up different points. Focusing on one subject at a time -- and making separate conclusions on them -- is how you evolve a discussion.

you argue without looking at a lot of facts

I'm looking at facts relevant to the discussion I'm participating in. We were discussing whether an ability circle is OP compared to sector activation, and that is what I was discussing. If you want to compare stats of the ability, that is a different discussion.

I watched the replay and didn't see a single case where Axis armour was clearly out of the circle and hit with the arty. There were a couple of instances (such as this one) where your vehicles were on the edge of the circle (or just backing out of it when a shell was launched), but that =/= "clearly out" of it.

that wasn't the hardest "clearly out" in that game, but i'm too lazy to find a better one, so i hopped into cheat commands mod:

tha puma didnt move beforehand

But none of these features/stats will matter if you move out of its way, which is what you and I were debating in here. Let's not mix up different points. Focusing on one subject at a time -- and making separate conclusions on them -- is how you evolve a discussion.

a) you can't just look at at all point while ignoring the others
b) i wasn't just talking about round abilities

I'm looking at facts relevant to the discussion I'm participating in. We were discussing whether an ability circle is OP compared to sector activation, and that is what I was discussing. If you want to compare stats of the ability, that is a different discussion.

well a circular is usually better than a sector ability, because the shortest way out of a sector is usually faster than out of a circle

If we just remove the pinning capabilities it still remains a "zero skill ability with no counterplay". It's just less annoying.

That is the point. There are several abilities that require zero skill to cast and have no counter, but these abilities must not be strong, otherwise they become overpowered. The best course of action here would be to just remove the ability from the game, but we know that's not going to happen.

Look at OKW sector assault. A lot of fancy arty, that doesn't actually kill anything, it's just used for the smoke. This ability must never be able to actually track units like Close the Pocket, because it would op, limited only by the fact that it only targets a sector.

It's a huge problem on maps such as crossing in the River, where it covers half the map at times as well halfway in the enemy base

It's OP because of the,
ACCURACY
AREA OFF EFFECT
POTENCY TOWARDS INFANTRY.

One of the few I win buttons left in the game.

Increase reaction time
Or
Reduce area of effect
OR
Have it effect all tanks and infantry in the area including friendlys.

Don't get me started on the alien technology of bracertain, and self repair. And both of them at the same time. Relic is brainless.

a) you can't just look at at all point while ignoring the others
b) i wasn't just talking about round abilities

I'm not ignoring anything. I'm saying that you should look at one subject at a time to make separate judgment on those in order to be able to accurately see what makes an ability/unit/commander OP, if anything. That's why you will find separate arguments on cost/stats/CP in any reasonable discussion of a certain ability/unit when debating balance in here.

This was your reply to my comment on your post -- both points concern escaping the arty, so yes, were were just talking about that.

And sorry, nothing personal but I can't take a random screenshot as a proof that the arty hits units outside of its circle. But as I said, even if that is the case, my first post in this thread said it would be OP indeed if it wasn't restricted to specific area effect, so I've nothing to do with that point.

I can't see how having to evade a circle rather than a sector is OP.
Yes, and the counterplay to the Tactical Support Regiment arty is to evade it until it stops.

1- Sector abilities tends to either be focus around the flag position or through the sector zone. In either case, the area of effect is way smaller than AC (arty cover) and you are limited to a specific region.
Sector abilities tend to be stronger due to this in comparison to pinpoint abilities.
Circle area offmaps have either a way SMALLER AoE, are either weaker or have a strong RNG component on them.

2- The "current" OP part is either the AI capabilities, mostly cause it's GG for any support weapons which can't retreat or the range of the ability combined with it's duration.

Right now it does TOO MANY THINGS WELL in comparison to ALL OTHER OFFMAPS in the game.
-It doesn't have restrictions to zone casting in comparison to it's power level (Sector arty, Assault arty, Close the pocket)
-Arrival/Landing/Ramping is too fast (Air superiority, Sector assault, Zeroing, Scavenge arty)
-It's both AI and AT
-It can't be denied in comparison to planes.
-Duration and range (AoE)
-It's pinpoint accurate

Instead of nerfing it to be equal as other offmaps, i think that limiting it's access/casting is better, specially if this helps the other ability (FoP) to be more useable.

So would the Arty cover damage the command vehicle?

Why would it? It only "tracks" enemy vehicles. I'm not saying that the center of the ability should cast on top of the command vehicle btw, just that instead of free will casting on any part of the map, you must do it from a nearby casting unit/building.

1- Sector abilities tends to either be focus around the flag position or through the sector zone. In either case, the area of effect is way smaller than AC (arty cover) and you are limited to a specific region.
Sector abilities tend to be stronger due to this in comparison to pinpoint abilities.

Do you have a video/replay where a player on the receiving end of the Tactical Support Regiment artillery attempts to evade the circle but can not do so in time, in contrast to other circle-based or sector-based offmaps?

That's why you will find separate arguments on cost/stats/CP in any reasonable discussion of a certain ability/unit when debating balance in here.

you cannot just look at one singe specific point and say that something is op or not. OPness is always a function of all three things interconnected

And sorry, nothing personal but I can't take a random screenshot as a proof that the arty hits units outside of its circle.

that's ridiculous...
then go test it yourself, you will clearly see that the actual radius of the circle also shown beforehand in red on the minimap is way larger than what is shown afterwards to the enemy
edit:
proof here
before
after

Do you have a video/replay where a player on the receiving end of the Tactical Support Regiment artillery attempts to evade the circle but can not do so in time, in contrast to other circle-based or sector-based offmaps?

you just watched my replay, but its not the only instance for me in the last couple of days

i'm not gonna repeat myself on my other points, elchino7 sums it up pretty nicely

After thinking about it I think Elchino is right after all and his solution better than mine. I still think the infantry pinning is a little over the top though.

you cannot just look at one singe specific point and say that something is op or not

That's not what I said. I said you should review the different aspects separately before making the conclusion on whether the ability is OP.

An example:

* An arty ability is powerful enough to obliterate a tank -- separate judgment says it's OP for a one-click skill-less ability;
* It can be avoided by reacting in a timely manner and moving the tank in question out of its area -- separate judgment says it's reasonable;

Then you combine the two and make the final conclusion. But you wanted to debate all of the ability's aspects at the same time without making your judgment on my point that it can be evaded like other circle-targeting abilities.

you just watched my replay

Yes, and I didn't see a single example of this arty's circle preventing timely escape from it. It can be escaped from just like any other offmap ability.