Tactical support regiment (aka Arty cover clutch)

Before addressing the elephant on the room (arty cover), i'll give a brief description of the whole commander.

2CP: Designate command vehicle.
Currently on LIVE, it's been use as one of the ez ways to get constant vision. For the late game, this proves useful for the use of offmaps.
Mostly addressed with WBP (although the design of the ability still should be changed and the recon should cost muni)

4CP: Field Recovery Op. (2RE with scavenge kit)
450mp for 2RE with sweepers and scavenge kit. They are similar to Tank hunter (SU) scavenge kit rather than OKW one.
To make "justice" to the other thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GulOHolWYpc&feature=youtu.be&t=9482
The problem is not the resource gained, the issue is having the sweeper kit not taking a weapon slot. You can still double equipped them with PIATS/Brens (the later till WBP arrives)

4CP: Air resupply Operation.
150muni for AT gun + MG + medkit. Or how the airborne doctrine/air drop from USF should had been (muni instead of mp).

10CP: Artillery Cover
250muni for OP ability.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GulOHolWYpc&feature=youtu.be&t=9256
DISCLAIMER:
-The ability no longer blinds/jam turrets nor crits engines on vehicles. It "injures" the loader. You might ask wtf is this, well it debuffs the reload time (2x).
-You need LOS to keep attacking the units (GG no smoke with OKW)
-It's still broken against infantry, specially support weapons since it suppress/pins you.

Regarding the vid:
Show Spoiler

I'll go back into this ability later.

For 99% of the playerbase this is the complete roster of abilities. But trust me, there's a 5th one.

10CP: Forward Observation Post
Call in Close-Air-Support strafes, as well as recon runs, smoke artillery support, and high-explosive artillery. Cost 300mp/60f. With that cost, limited to environment buildings which can't be repaired and having subpar abilities in comparison to IWIN button, who the hell will bother with it.

Personal baked solution to both problems:

FOP:
-Reduce cost to 200mp 30f (values may change but this is just to give an ex)
-Let it be built on Forward assemblies

Artillery Cover:
1
-Now it's casted from the FoP
-It could be limited (or not) to the range of the FOP casting range. This would made it a more defensive tool rather than IWIN push ability.
2
-Let it be casted from FoP and/or Command vehicle
-Ability get's canceled if the unit/building get's destroyed
-Command vehicle casting the ability must remain immobile during the duration of the skill

Close air support/artillery:
-In case we opt for going just with FoP changes and not command vehicle, either of this abilities replaces Arty cover on the normal 5 commander abilities.

Well since you "own" the trenches as well I see nothing bad about letting it be deployed on them as well, artillery observers have been known to use dug in positions on elevated ground such as hills in order to use it as cover as well.

10CP: Artillery Cover
250muni for OP ability.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GulOHolWYpc&feature=youtu.be&t=9256
DISCLAIMER:
-The ability no longer blinds/jam turrets nor crits engines on vehicles. It "injures" the loader. You might ask wtf is this, well it debuffs the reload time (2x).
-You need LOS to keep attacking the units (GG no smoke with OKW)
-It's still broken against infantry, specially support weapons since it suppress/pins you.

Regarding the vid:
Show Spoiler

Your Spoiler is exactly that, what i wanted to write^^

After the fight the brit pounders were vet3 and vet 1 ! They were before vet 2 and vet 0.

Yes this ability is very very strong!. But in this case, both tanks would have survived and comet maybe death, when both OKW tanks just drove into his base.

In the past it was OP like hell, because of enginedamage, so you could not drive away.

Don't get me wrong i hate to play vs arty cover as well, but in this case, the arty cover was not used very well. You could just drive away.

As long as the arty ability is limited to specific area and requires LoS, I believe there's nothing OP about it. There are other abilities that require the player on the receiving end to evacuate an area before the ability runs out/is interrupted (Airborne Company P-47 rocket strike, Stuka cannon strafe, Sector Artillery, Close the Pocket), so the argument "you can't enter the area as long as it's active so you lose map control" is not unique to this ability.

i have several problems with this ability:
1) it attacks stuff outside of the radius shown on the minimap
2) it doesnt just kill stuff, it also pins everythig making it impossible to retreat, especially stuff like paks
3) getting vision is way too easy with the command vehicle (fortunately wbp will make that quite a bit harder)
4) the arty keeps coming down for a two or three shots even after loss of vision

and in contrast to most other AoE abilities, this is not planes, so they cannot be shot down and its also against every kind of unit, not just against tanks

I like the idea of Arty Cover being either cast around the Command Vehicles or from FoP.

As to FoP itself, what if it was attached to the old Arty Officer but could still only be fired from buildings with a cooldown each time it pops into the building?

Just remove the infantry pinning. It's a zero skill ability with no counterplay

Imo problem with arty cover is that it combines:
1) quite big area
2) very fast responce of artillery shells
3) both AI and AT effect
4) no real counter except gtfo

If you look at any other offmap ability, you can find only 2 (some have 3 but still not as deadly) advantages of 4 named before. For example, plane loiters attack only tanks or infantry and have AA counters, artillery strikes dont nail big areas and usually allow you to escape if you have enough reaction.

i have several problems with this ability:
1) it attacks stuff outside of the radius shown on the minimap
4) the arty keeps coming down for a two or three shots even after loss of vision

That's an UI issue which affects a lots of units/abilities.
That's because you had been already "tracked" and the shells are on their way. Same thing happens with loiter planes.

Imo problem with arty cover is that it combines:
1) quite big area
2) very fast responce of artillery shells
3) both AI and AT effect
4) no real counter except gtfo

If you look at any other offmap ability, you can find only 2 (some have 3 but still not as deadly) advantages of 4 named before. For example, plane loiters attack only tanks or infantry and have AA counters, artillery strikes dont nail big areas and usually allow you to escape if you have enough reaction.

As long as the arty ability is limited to specific sector and requires LoS, I believe there's nothing OP about it. There are other abilities that require the player on the receiving end to evacuate an area before the ability runs out/is interrupted (Airborne Company P-47 rocket strike, Stuka cannon strafe, Sector Artillery, Close the Pocket), so the argument "you can't enter the area as long as it's active so you lose map control" is not unique to this ability.

See the post above.
P47/Stuka loiter: it's 2 planes which are only AT and can be shot down.
Sector artillery: defensive ability only affecting a single sector, not a circular area. Simil could be said about OKW assault artillery
Close the pocket: requires HUGE planification and execution. Stills allows counterplay (decapping).

What most people won't realise, is that Artillery Cover is probably the only remanent of the original UKF offmap design (utterly bs with shared cooldown).

Its way to strong...and its the "I_WIN_BUTTON" which require no skill...only a single klick into the enemy army...no scouting etc (like call ins from planes) need after klick it.

ur tanks are stunded,slow, infantery is pinned....wtf is wrong with relic?

German version: close the pocket.

but: u need to cap the area near the enemy base to use this ability with power.

not just a klick into the enemy army..

ur tanks are stunded,slow, infantery is pinned....wtf is wrong with relic?

It would be good if you read the disclaimer (i'm gonna edit the post and put in red for people like you)

It would be good if you read the disclaimer (i'm gonna edit the post and put in red for people like you)

??
engine damage+ turret lock + supression/death of infantry

??
engine damage+ turret lock

This does not happen

Well since you "own" the trenches as well I see nothing bad about letting it be deployed on them as well, artillery observers have been known to use dug in positions on elevated ground such as hills in order to use it as cover as well.

I'm not completely against the concept but atm, the trenches are too easily to build and cheap. I purposely suggest the forward assembly cause it's easier to hit-destroy and it's cost is higher.

I like the idea of Arty Cover being either cast around the Command Vehicles or from FoP.

I think the command vehicle idea is good. I added a couple of lines to the first post to further improve the concept.

-Ability get's canceled if the unit/building get's destroyed
-Command vehicle casting the ability must remain immobile during the duration of the skill

Problem with the concept: i think it's mostly an UI one. Not something impossible to solve but it might require a bit more testing as well.

Just remove the infantry pinning. It's a zero skill ability with no counterplay

If we just remove the pinning capabilities it still remains a "zero skill ability with no counterplay". It's just less annoying.

This does not happen

well..i see this often...the turrents are locked, the tanks didnt shoot anymore and sometime it get critical dmg which destroy guns and engines....and now?

Arty cover is the definition of 1-click-win-abbility I wont go so far that it has the same level of OPness as CAS back in the days when it had selfspotting and was targeting armor + infantry, but it should be toned down either by reducing AoE or only target armor/infantry.

Wreck values are, unfortunately, all over the place. We haven't managed to be convincing enough to remove this inconsistency.

(IMO: The most ridiculous ability in the game that has not been touched by WBP is "Heroic Charge". Since heroic charge is out of scope, I doubt that other, less ridiculous abilities can be considered in-scope.)

The commander needs a bit of redesign. I'm a big fan of doing something to make forward observation point more useful, and also letting the core army synergise better with weapon drops (Brits have no mobile reinforcement platform).

The commandeer abilities would synergise really well with a faction that has strong forward reinforcement options. This is something that Brits lack. Thus, this commander is forever going to revolve around Arty Cover -- unless something changes.

Core army:
- Make forward assemblies cheaper say 200MP or 150MP 15FU), but remove emplacement garrison bonus
- To compensate, make forward retreat points more expensive (200MP -> 300-350MP). Forward retreat could activate emplacement garrison bonuses.

Commander:

Forward Observation point:
- Can be activated on forward assemblies
- Gets free recon (currently costs 30 muni?)
- Can cast artillery cover within X radius
- Cost (potentially) reduced

Artillery cover
- Needs to fire a few dud shells (bofors barrage + shells that deal 0 damage). This is to warn the other player that the ability is active
- Debuffs could build up over time, rather than be binary
- Can cast either from command vehicle or from forward obervation point
- Cancels if casting vehicle move or is destroyed

Command Vehicle:
- Reduce bonuses / Make bonuses less ridiculous for infantry (for tanks it's OK-ish)
- Remove speed penalty
- Add ability cooldown penalties for AVRE/Crew nades/Smoke/White Phosphorus
- Increase veterancy gain speed (since the CV's damage output gets reduced by 75%)

Salvage operation:
- Allows engineers to upgrade salvage kit for 1 slot item worth
- Salvage kit gets ability that pings available wrecks for player in containing sector (could give same ability to Soviet salvage crews)
- Not mutually-exclusive with anvil upgrade
- Need to figure out consistent wreck values (gaining more than 30 fuel per any type of vehicle is too much)

Air resupply operation
- No change.
- Note the synergy with cheaper forward assemblies, though: People could use the ability more tactically; establish foothold -> supply drop -> push

EDIT:
If we want to go for complete-overkill mode, arty cover could also trigger victor barrage on all mortar pits, bofors (suppressive barrage), 25 pounder, airburst shells, etc

yeah..leeching 160fuel from a panther and a KT in 20sec is way to much...

Wreck values are, unfortunately, all over the place. We haven't managed to be convincing enough to remove this inconsistency.

(IMO: The most ridiculous ability in the game that has not been touched by WBP is "Heroic Charge". Since heroic charge is out of scope, I doubt that other, less ridiculous abilities can be considered in-scope.)

The commander needs a bit of redesign. I'm a big fan of doing something to make forward observation point more useful, and also letting the core army synergise better with weapon drops (Brits have no mobile reinforcement platform).

The commandeer abilities would synergise really well with a faction that has strong forward reinforcement options. This is something that Brits lack. Thus, this commander is forever going to revolve around Arty Cover -- unless something changes.

Core army:
- Make forward assemblies cheaper say 200MP or 150MP 15FU), but remove emplacement garrison bonus
- To compensate, make forward retreat points more expensive (200MP -> 300-350MP). Forward retreat could activate emplacement garrison bonuses.

Commander:

Forward Observation point:
- Can be activated on forward assemblies
- Gets free recon (currently costs 30 muni?)
- Can cast artillery cover within X radius
- Cost (potentially) reduced

Artillery cover
- Needs to fire a few dud shells (bofors barrage + shells that deal 0 damage). This is to warn the other player that the ability is active
- Debuffs could build up over time, rather than be binary
- Can cast either from command vehicle or from forward obervation point
- Cancels if casting vehicle move or is destroyed

Command Vehicle:
- Reduce bonuses / Make bonuses less ridiculous for infantry (for tanks it's OK-ish)
- Remove speed penalty
- Add ability cooldown penalties for AVRE/Crew nades/Smoke/White Phosphorus
- Increase veterancy gain speed (since the CV's damage output gets reduced by 75%)

Salvage operation:
- Allows engineers to upgrade salvage kit for 1 slot item worth
- Salvage kit gets ability that pings available wrecks for player in containing sector (could give same ability to Soviet salvage crews)
- Not mutually-exclusive with anvil upgrade
- Need to figure out consistent wreck values (gaining more than 30 fuel per any type of vehicle is too much)

Air resupply operation
- No change.
- Note the synergy with cheaper forward assemblies, though: People could use the ability more tactically; establish foothold -> supply drop -> push

EDIT:
If we want to go for complete-overkill mode, arty cover could also trigger victor barrage on all mortar pits, bofors (suppressive barrage), 25 pounder, airburst shells, etc

I especially like your FA idea, how about just making it 200 man power and 15 fuel, and making the retreat point upgrade cost like, 150-200 which also activates the garrison bonuses, and another upgrade which spawns medics around the FA os it that too overkill for a single building?

But I think a nice Wehrmacht bunker like system where each forward assembly is it's own thing, like for example you might want medics to heal your troops since you don't have the ammo to upgrade IS or just don't have IS, so you upgrade one forward assembly to a medic post so to speak, you need repairs on your tanks and have the Advanced Emplacements Regiment so you upgrade it with that, or you upgrade it to a Forward Observation Post, 1 upgrade per FA, multiple Brit players can pull their resources to create a proper FOB like the OKW and Wehrmacht can which would further improve teamwork on the Allied side.