Ideas for the Missing 6th faction

8 vehicles and 9 infantry based units seems like a good mix to me, at least from a gameplay perspective. Half the problem with the original PE was that it had too many useless vehicles (like the munitions HT, Vamp, Scout car etc) and not enough support weapons. I have painful memories. I don't mind a little historical inaccuracy if it means better gameplay.

I don't mind a bit of Italian mix, but like I said, I think the core faction should be German and the doctrines should feature the Italians. I actually drew up some Italian doctrines but didn't add them in because the Post was long enough as it was.

Yeah but it's not the "Panzer Elite" anymore then, it's some sort of mish-mash of mechanized units with a side order of infantry and support weapons.

And yes they did have support weapons, in the form of the 250 Infantry Half-track and 250 Mortar Half-track, plus the 37mm short barrel 250 Half-track being the "Sniper" so to speak, while the Marder was basically your PaK.

But yeah, the Vamp gimmicky, the Munitions half-track was... gay, I mean the whole deal with having absolutely LONG recharge times that required the PE player to gather around a single vehicle or building in order to recharge their abilities faster was obsolete on so many levels, as well as the large amounts of upgrades for the PGs spread around all of the tech buildings, and you needed all of them if you wanted to get the most out of your PGs, which were your only Infantry unit that did everything for the Army.

I think that they just simply needed a single building for upgrading the PGs, no long reload times for their abilities and the old veterancy system back which was pretty unique as with every other Army in CoH, unlike CoH 2 in which only the OKW have a unique veterancy system, plus some actually useful tanks, and not French and Czech scrapped ones with a call in for 2 Panthers that costed you an arm and a leg in order to research and then call in.

I mean really, the best tank non-doctrinally which a German Army can call in should be the Panther, not a Tiger or a KT as it is with the OKW.

If you want the heavier beasts you will have to go with a doctrine, and I'm still sad we couldn't choose to replace the Jagdpanther with a Jagdtiger as a reward unit as we could in Eastern Front mod, and that is why I love that mod so much and want it to become an official expansion to the game.

So yeah, that's my 2 cents on it, I don't think vanilla PE would work in this game, or your Army would have to be called something else since again, it's a mish-mash of mechanized and infantry/support weapon units, not a dedicated Mechanized Army which the PE was.

Don't mention politics, this is not the site to discuss it.

This faction is a Dream

There is an extra fifth faction, not a missing 6th.

Totally agreed... while 5th is too much for this game, how do you think about for a 6th

nope, because of different engine and no THQ bancruptcy


now stop talking, get a playercard and profile pic pls

Why don´t you get playercard yourself as well.

Doble standarts, aren´t they ?

Japan doesn't fit into CoH2. It'd be much better as a Pacific campaign for CoH. I've always been a proponent of a CoH based on the pacific side, with Japan, US Marines, & Australia.

IMO for CoH2, if anything, it'd need to be Italy for the European campaigns.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Italian_Army_equipment_in_World_War_II

I would disagree Japan could be made to fit into CoH 2. Melee is out of the question but there are many other routes we could go down.

Hmm before that I think they should remove all the bugs from the game, fix path finding.. But I think coh2 is the last coh we will get, I think DAW3 will be a major failure, soo we have to hope for Iron harvest

Volkssturm and hitlerjurgend... A very heavy infantry based faction that is the polar opposite to pander elite of vcoh.

Vehicles could use captured, or outdated vehicles from Italian, British or French vehicles. Time to bring out the Panzer 3s and 38ts

Nice work. I'm not going to weigh in on pro or con for a sixth faction and who they would be (German again, Italian or Japanese) but what I will weigh in on is the role or theme they should have.

If UKF was introduced to counter late-game German armor (and it was) then what the Axis need is a faction to counter late-game Allied artillery.

Can someone put in a casting call for the Hummel, Wespe, 12 cm Granatwerfer 42, 15 cm sFH 18, etc.? At least a couple of them? Please Relic?

Yeah but it's not the "Panzer Elite" anymore then, it's some sort of mish-mash of mechanized units with a side order of infantry and support weapons.

And yes they did have support weapons, in the form of the 250 Infantry Half-track and 250 Mortar Half-track, plus the 37mm short barrel 250 Half-track being the "Sniper" so to speak, while the Marder was basically your PaK.

But yeah, the Vamp gimmicky, the Munitions half-track was... gay, I mean the whole deal with having absolutely LONG recharge times that required the PE player to gather around a single vehicle or building in order to recharge their abilities faster was obsolete on so many levels, as well as the large amounts of upgrades for the PGs spread around all of the tech buildings, and you needed all of them if you wanted to get the most out of your PGs, which were your only Infantry unit that did everything for the Army.

I think that they just simply needed a single building for upgrading the PGs, no long reload times for their abilities and the old veterancy system back which was pretty unique as with every other Army in CoH, unlike CoH 2 in which only the OKW have a unique veterancy system, plus some actually useful tanks, and not French and Czech scrapped ones with a call in for 2 Panthers that costed you an arm and a leg in order to research and then call in.

I mean really, the best tank non-doctrinally which a German Army can call in should be the Panther, not a Tiger or a KT as it is with the OKW.

If you want the heavier beasts you will have to go with a doctrine, and I'm still sad we couldn't choose to replace the Jagdpanther with a Jagdtiger as a reward unit as we could in Eastern Front mod, and that is why I love that mod so much and want it to become an official expansion to the game.

So yeah, that's my 2 cents on it, I don't think vanilla PE would work in this game, or your Army would have to be called something else since again, it's a mish-mash of mechanized and infantry/support weapon units, not a dedicated Mechanized Army which the PE was.

Well yeah, the name isn't really important.

The old PE did have a lot of problems though and I wanted to fix them with this design. IMO the only support weapon the original PE had was the mortar half-track. The other halftracks were good but they weren't support weapons, they were light vehicles, in the same way that the Vickers was not a support weapon, it was an emplacement. Do you get what I mean? And the Marder was no replacement for a Pak, it was good, but it was a tank destroyer, plain and simple.

I totally agree, PGs were over worked in the original PE. That's why I think support weapons are so desperately needed. I can understand wanting to keep the mechanized aesthetic of the PE, but they need a dependable set of support weapons. Look at the Brits, how badly do they need a mortar and flamer. The mortar pit is good but its no replacement for basic support weapons. That's why the OKW was given the MG34 (non-doctrinal) and the USF was given a mortar. They need the essentials.

Yeah I also agree...vamp, muni HT, recharge times, double panthers. They seemed like they could have been interesting in theory but when actually put into practice they didn't work out so well.
I disagree when it comes to the upgrades, I like that idea, it adds another layer of thought and strategy as to why you would choose a certain tier over another. It didn't work in the original because T2 dominated T1 so badly. There was only one reason you built T1 and that was increased squad sizes. And the upgrades were only essential because PGs were over worked...which was because...

Absolutely, the Panther should be the main stay of the army. Tigers should definitely be doctrinal.

I actually used to be on the balance team for the EF mod, around the time of the OH beta. I loved that mod, I used to play with some great guys. I stopped playing it after vcoh was migrated to steam.

I actually used to be on the balance team for the EF mod, around the time of the OH beta. I loved that mod, I used to play with some great guys. I stopped playing it after vcoh was migrated to steam.

Oh, why'd you stop? Just wondering.

Oh, why'd you stop? Just wondering.

The main reasons were because I started college, moved city and took up a job

But there were other small reasons as well. Coh2 had just come out (Tragically before OH did for the Mod) so whenever I did have time to play games I played this. This was compounded by the fact that a lot of the community went over to Coh2, so getting a game was difficult.

I think the last straw was when Coh could only be played through steam, so for a period of several months you couldn't actually play the Mod. At least I think that was what happened, it was 4 years ago so I can only vaguely remember. I also remember that the leaderboards on vcoh was either reset or didn't work at all, and given that I was in top 100-150, I decided to end my coh 'career'.

Its a shame OH didn't come out earlier, because they were great fun to play. My favourite doc was the one with the Lefh 18 and the Elefant. I loved the Tankbuster and LMG squads. The P3 was just awesome. I didn't like the way that the Tiger, Panther and P4, had not only had the same role, but were also doctrinal. I felt either a Panther or Tiger for all would have been better. Haven't played it in years so I don't know if this is still the case.

When all is said and done though, EF was amazing fun. You simply could not beat the tank battles on EF, vcoh simply couldn't match. The thing with Soviets was that they didn't rely so heavily on indirect, like the western armies, so Axis vs Soviet 3v3s were massive armour slug fests and so entertaining. Soviets had a very fresh and complete design as well, so you could play them in 1v1 and they were more viable than the Brits and PE.

Those were the days...

Well yeah, the name isn't really important.

The old PE did have a lot of problems though and I wanted to fix them with this design. IMO the only support weapon the original PE had was the mortar half-track. The other halftracks were good but they weren't support weapons, they were light vehicles, in the same way that the Vickers was not a support weapon, it was an emplacement. Do you get what I mean? And the Marder was no replacement for a Pak, it was good, but it was a tank destroyer, plain and simple.

I totally agree, PGs were over worked in the original PE. That's why I think support weapons are so desperately needed. I can understand wanting to keep the mechanized aesthetic of the PE, but they need a dependable set of support weapons. Look at the Brits, how badly do they need a mortar and flamer. The mortar pit is good but its no replacement for basic support weapons. That's why the OKW was given the MG34 (non-doctrinal) and the USF was given a mortar. They need the essentials.

Yeah I also agree...vamp, muni HT, recharge times, double panthers. They seemed like they could have been interesting in theory but when actually put into practice they didn't work out so well.
I disagree when it comes to the upgrades, I like that idea, it adds another layer of thought and strategy as to why you would choose a certain tier over another. It didn't work in the original because T2 dominated T1 so badly. There was only one reason you built T1 and that was increased squad sizes. And the upgrades were only essential because PGs were over worked...which was because...

Absolutely, the Panther should be the main stay of the army. Tigers should definitely be doctrinal.

I actually used to be on the balance team for the EF mod, around the time of the OH beta. I loved that mod, I used to play with some great guys. I stopped playing it after vcoh was migrated to steam.

It's not in CoH 2, it was in CoH, you knew the American force consisted of zerk tactics and superior economy and pumping out units, you knew the Brits in the hands of a competent player was going to give you a hard time in gaining ground from him, you knew the PE was going to need lots and lots of fuel and either PG spam you or rush for PZIVs/Panthers, and you knew the Wehr was going to go Blitz most of the time and make a zombie Army of Grenadiers from dead Volks and go for the Tiger or Storms, and in EF you knew the Soviets are going to probably bring in some heavy beasts for you to fight and spam Conscripts.

The names stood for something, now... not so much. The Soviets are neither good at being mobile or defending/attacking, they only have good in-direct fire, main infantry force consists of badly scaling late game infantry, you're reliant on doctrines majorly and your "heavy beasts" are very situational and not worth it, most of the time.

The USF was lacking a proper in-direct support weapon and that's why they gave them the Mortar as you said, plus they didn't have anything else to build in T0 but riflemen, the Brits have the cringe-worthy mortar pit that will never be balanced properly and the OKW have access to elite infantry with superior vet to everyone else and access to one of the heaviest tanks in the game by default...

I mean they're a mish-mash of units and abilities brought together and even the Armies themselves don't even know what they represent, the Soviets should have the most spammable infantry unit but they don't, the USF should have their economy and logistics behind them but they don't, the Brits should be able to take ground and hold it but they can't effectively do that, the OKW should be representing a late war German Army with low resources and access to both SOME "Elite" infantry and conscripted infantry like the Volks which were never meant to replace the Grenadiers and some heavy tanks that weren't there most of the time but they don't, and finally the Wehrmacht should be representing the Blitzkrieg German Army of 1941, not a mish-mash of both 1941 and 1943 vehicles and tactics, I mean, seeing a StuG E next to an Elephant is laughable... I mean, yeah, they probably had SOME surviving vehicles but cmon. The Wehr is the Army that's supposed to have the mobile trucks of the OKW, not the other way around. Plus the bikes and all of the other early war Blitzkrieg units that were there like the Panzer 3, I see no reason why it's not in the game, or the 88. OKW is supposed to have the cement structures of CoH and be a heavily defensible German Army to represent late war German which was on the defense constantly, except for the rare instances of a last ditch effort at an attack like the Ardennes Offensive which severely depleted what was left of Germany's fuel supplies.

Anyhow, just give em another name and it's fine by me, even if the name doesn't fit with the Army anymore in this game.

However I will argue that the "Light" vehicles of the PE were their support weapons, I've been playing a heap of CoH lately and I've started noticing it more and more, the 250 infantry Half-track suppresses, the mortar HT truck does what it says on the tin and the 37mm HT is like I said your sniper, and I still consider the Marder as your fuel costing no-camo ability big ass PaK that can lock down to fire faster, however it does trade off mobility and firepower for defense so... And it does fit the PE motto of being aggressive and having superior mobility over your enemy, being able to appear unexpectedly out of nowhere and strike hard and retreat back to rearm and regroup, so it did make sense for MOST of their vehicles.

Again, I'm not against your Army concept, I'm against it's name, as it's a smack in the face of the old PE and it's veteran players, if not for a name to make sense in this game.

I really don't want another German faction. I'd really like Japan, obviously, but everyone says that. A faction I'd love to see that nobody talks about is a coalition of Bulgaria, Hungary, and Romania, and perhaps even Italy. Call them the "Ostverbündete" or something. Possibly weak by themselves, these countries together are plenty competent to pose a significant fighting force together. Many used Germany equipment, and others used some of their own designs. I think they'd be a great faction.

It's not in CoH 2, it was in CoH, you knew the American force consisted of zerk tactics...

The names stood for something, now... not so much....

The USF was lacking a proper in-direct support weapon...

I mean they're a mish-mash of units and abilities...

However I will argue that the "Light" vehicles of the PE were their support weapons, I've been playing a heap of CoH lately and I've started noticing it more and more, the 250 infantry Half-track suppresses, the mortar HT truck does what it says on the tin and the 37mm HT is like I said your sniper, and I still consider the Marder as your fuel costing no-camo ability big ass PaK that can lock down to fire faster, however it does trade off mobility and firepower for defense so... And it does fit the PE motto of being aggressive and having superior mobility over your enemy, being able to appear unexpectedly out of nowhere and strike hard and retreat back to rearm and regroup, so it did make sense for MOST of their vehicles.

I agree with everything you said except the final para. Leaving my faction ideas aside, the PE light vehicles we're definitely not support weapons. I know that was the idea when PE was initially designed but it really didn't work out like that. In situations like this you have to ask yourself 'what is it about an MG that makes it an MG?'
Is it because it suppresses? I would argue no. Look at this example:

Say you have 2 squads of Grens sitting on the flanks of and an MG42. Your objective as Allies is to wipe the MG or make it retreat. You have all kinds of methods to deal with it, you could either snipe the gunner until it retreats, you could mortar it, you could flank it with cons, you could use an M20 to dislodge it. This entire scenario stays the exact same no matter what MG you use, MG34, 50 Cal, Maxim, Vickers, whatever. All these MGs have universal properties and can be substituted into different scenarios to replace one another and will have similar performance. They all cost manpower only, the can all be decrewed, they all suppress, they can all be injured by small arms, can all be sniped etc. However, let's say you put a flak HT into the MG42s place, the situation changes entirely. You can't snipe it, you can't flank it with cons unless you have AT grenades, you can't mortar it, you can't use the M20. Yes the flak HT suppresses but its not an MG, its a light vehicle. Take PE infantry HTs, same idea. Yes they suppress in pairs but they don't function as an MG.

Its the exact same with the mortar HT, Marder and AT HT, they don't substitute for Mortars, Paks and Snipers. It's as simple as that.

The way Coh is designed, factions need three basic support weapons; mortars, MGs and AT guns (and in the first Coh, snipers, but not so much in Coh2) to be balanced. That's why the USF were given the mortar, why OKW was given the MG34, why Brits most of the time go land mattress.

So IMO you can't have the PE without infringing either the original aesthetic or the balance. I'm all for keeping the PE look and feel, but designing a faction without these basic support weapons is a bad idea and impossible to balance. The original PE is a great example of this, if the changes made to OKW, US and Brits were not enough convince you. And I would much rather the aesthetic of PE being slightly changed rather than Relic releasing another broken faction.

You need Relic logic, not WW2 logic.

So ridiculously OP features, which would be nerfed well after people have bought this DLC, and incorporating many new ideas that break game balance...but as a result, ironically restores game balance.

You need Relic logic, not WW2 logic.

So ridiculously OP features, which would be nerfed well after people have bought this DLC, and incorporating many new ideas that break game balance...but as a result, ironically restores game balance.

Like what? Most of my ideas came from the original Coh so..

Can you please explain the difference between my logic and Relic logic?

Edit: Or do you mean: the faction needs to be more broken before Relic would consider making it . More flashy features, less wise design.

Wow, what a massive write-up. Love the dedication on display!
Also sounded great making it more "anti-allies-artillery".
Hope it will become a reality one day!