Debuff for blobs

I think we should take another approach. Generally in programming root of most big problems is that the design of implementation is too far from how the modelled part of reality really works. This is error prone and means that in order to keep the illusion source code becomes more and more complicated.

This is exactly the case here - someone thought it is a good idea to design small arms in a way that the bullet either hits the target or hits nothing - this is done to simplify the calculations generally. And it works really well when there is not many models to shoot at or the models are spaced out.

What happens if they are clumbed up? Player would expect that missed shot will hit somebody else, or to visualise it better, if you shoot at a ball of 30 conscripts clumbed together one would expect they are bigger of a target than a lone model. But actually, for small arms they are not. Sadly, it also applies for mgs.

What I would suggest is changing all hmgs so that they always shoot in a way mg42 piercing round shoot, so that they can have AoE and hit the ground, but with a different AoE profile. The profile should be such that when counting only direct hitting shots, in case of units staying in a line, like they typically do in cover, the whole squad takes the same amount of damage it takes now, but dispersed between the model that is shot at and two models that are near it. If the model that is shot at is last, the squad takes less damage, but it accounts for shots that tacle them when hitting the ground.

In such case, lone or spread units out on the field will take less damage from mgs, but still same amount of suppression and still same amount of damage from other sources. On the other hand the real blobs, that feature models standing on top of each other becouse they got only a single command are going to be punished really hard becouse there always are going to be a few models around the targeted one and they are going to be hit by missed shot very often, too.

That way we can actually counter blobs that are just mindless mass, but we dont hit managed blobs that move together just to split into cover on sight of enemy, or defencive positions on corridor types of maps.

The cost of it is more cpu calculation but when you think of it, it can't be that much of a difference. I never heard anybody complaining about drops in performance when mg-42 uses its vet1 ability.

Hmm... So it shouldn't be about nerfing blobs, it should be about buffing counters?

It's a game, balancing is hard. But i too find it sad that 3 teams, walking/running into MG42 field of fire without any cover, and all that happens is a pindown? In best case, a retreat with little to no losses.

If something needs a change:
So MGs should kill more/pin and suppress more? Mortars should be even more lethal in open ground?

Nop cuz we all know what does mean super HMG = spam and kill any infantry play.

Do you expect an Atgun to stop a swarm of 3-4 t34, pz4 or shermans? nop. Same applies here. You cannot expect a single unit/260mp stopping a multitude of units costing 270mp+120/140amo each.

Why are some people still saying about blob? lol...

I think it is worth noting that the game mechanic of suppression does not seem to function as an area/map denial tool, and instead is seen as an infantry counter. Suppression from hmgs is not a damaging hard counter. It's a counter to maneuverability and positioning.

The maxim is largely at fault for this perspective since it suppresses single targeted units.

Also blobs that are suppressed by hmgs lose very little manpower from getting suppressed and pinned. Countering a blob with hmgs means that the blobber maintains hefty manpower reserves.

If all the top players blobbed, there would be a problem. If they don't, try harder at self critique. Maybe you are indeed not as l33t as you think and the problem is not the game. It might hurt at first to question yourself a little, but there is tremendous insight to be found. Or try to win using the same team and tactics as your opponent uses. If you lose doing that, that too should be a nice eye-opener.

I think these 2 posts are relevant

Each weapon has their separate accuracy modifiers vs suppressed/pinned units. Most weapons I've seen have -50% accuracy vs suppressed units and -90% accuracy vs pinned units, which is why pinned/suppressed squads seem more durable. The exact multiplier is particular to each weapon, and I sure hope that all weapons use the same modifiers.

Then, something along the lines of what ZombiFrancis described happens, and squads that have been "forgotten" in a pinned state for too long become easier to hit again. This multiplier is particular to each squad, and I sure hope that this modifier is equal for all squads.

After 10 seconds of being pinned, a units RA is multiplied by 4.

I think tweaking this elements could achieved some desired results.

Nop cuz we all know what does mean super HMG = spam and kill any infantry play.

Do you expect an Atgun to stop a swarm of 3-4 t34, pz4 or shermans? nop. Same applies here. You cannot expect a single unit/260mp stopping a multitude of units costing 270mp+120/140amo each.

But isn't that the idea behind MGs? Otherwise we'd be playing something which resembles Total war napoleon, with bayonet charges and massed infantry?

I'm trying to say HMGs SHOULD kill infantryplay in their field of fire. If you waltz into MG ambush, you should be punished with losses. This is why players should move in with a recon unit, and only assault with multiple squads when there's little resistance.

But again, this is against the game.

Personally i'd like more realistic approach. 75mm pak and faust should oneshot shermans etc... But it's a game.

I'd buff the suppress & pindown factors for ALL HMGs, so that the blob stops in it's tracks and becomes a perfect target for counterattack or a barrage. That should be enough for stopping a blob. The MG damage doesn't need buffing, neccessarily. This would also emphasize for flanking, use of smoke, indirect fire, combined arms etc etc...

But isn't that the idea behind MGs? Otherwise we'd be playing something which resembles Total war napoleon, with bayonet charges and massed infantry?

I'm trying to say HMGs SHOULD kill infantryplay in their field of fire. If you waltz into MG ambush, you should be punished with losses. This is why players should move in with a recon unit, and only assault with multiple squads when there's little resistance.

But again, this is against the game.

Personally i'd like more realistic approach. 75mm pak and faust should oneshot shermans etc... But it's a game.

I'd buff the suppress & pindown factors for ALL HMGs, so that the blob stops in it's tracks and becomes a perfect target for counterattack or a barrage. That should be enough for stopping a blob. The MG damage doesn't need buffing, neccessarily. This would also emphasize for flanking, use of smoke, indirect fire, combined arms etc etc...

Lol. I can imagine you only playing Ostheer and whining behind your computer -"BUT WHY MY HMG SPAM DOESN'T WORK!!!"

there is a mod if you like realistic approach, tanks oneshoting each other from each end of the map and infantry vision on the half of it. It has a weird name so I can't remember it now.

Heh.

I love simulators so it's sometimes hard to handle games as, well... Games.

But i simply hate when this happens in COH X__X
My HMG on right, enemy lolppshrushd00d coming from left

Is it a possibility of making blobs getting pinned faster than a single unit with mg?

Nop cuz we all know what does mean super HMG = spam and kill any infantry play.

Do you expect an Atgun to stop a swarm of 3-4 t34, pz4 or shermans? nop. Same applies here. You cannot expect a single unit/260mp stopping a multitude of units costing 270mp+120/140amo each.

Tanks and AT guns are totally different. Suppression does not play a factor in the equation.

You sure as shit should expect a hard counter to stop it's intended target. By stop, I mean suppress, reduce the infantry DPS, and force a retreat. MG=scissors, infantry=paper.

IMHO, The current issue is:

That on some units, when suppressed, the DPS isn't reduced enough.
When multiple targets enter an MG's arc there isn't a multiplier that increases the rate of suppression.

When multiple targets enter an MG's arc there isn't a multiplier that increases the rate of suppression.

There is, problem is it might not be effective due to a combination of factors (late game RA + yellow cover generated by indirect)

IMO suppression shouldn't be effected by recieved accuracy modifiers

IMO suppression shouldn't be effected by recieved accuracy modifiers

Note that this applies to "splash/AoE suppression" and not direct suppression on targeted squad.

I'm thinking that people would probably blob less if HMGs (other than Soviet ones) didn't have such a wide arc of fire.

Even if you split up your troops they are probably both going to be suppressed unless you attack from a different angle or put them on opposite sides of the screen. And flanking is not always an option, sometimes a quick charge forward is required.

And HMGs suppress squads in yellow cover almost as quickly as in no cover, and jumping from cover to cover isn't possible when dealing with HMGs anyway.

When multiple targets enter an MG's arc there isn't a multiplier that increases the rate of suppression.

Wut?
If one squad is rushing MG position, they shouldn't be suppressed as much as if there was a human wave / a massed assault attacking same MG position?

If your MG gets overwhelmed, it gets overwhelmed. End of story. If enemy is getting massed infantry instead of tanks, just get another MG to cover the same path.

Buff all mg suppression. make them do what they're designed to do. Like seriously. The mg42 only starts getting good at vet 2. It still has situations where not even a full burst will suppress.

This guy is right.
Blobs are still waaaay to powerfull in this game.

@Dear Pros saying they are easy to counter: What you gonna say to newcomers who are frustrated by this pudding?

yes, with decent HMG micro and arty you can keep most blobs under control .. Problem is that these 2 blob-counters often get roflstomped by indirect fire, and german arty can be dodged way easier than most allies arty.

Maybe design Sturmtiger as non-doctrinal unit for both Wehr and OKW??

Add timed/munition ability (Long cool down to stop spamming it) to all HMGs double the suppression and have it affect everything and area.

A - stops blob yolo to the front
B - makes scouting and flanking a requirement
C - makes smoke more desirable and a munition counter