Garden the Scope

funny how lelic wants to focus on some certain small area to balance, but the patch still takes ages to come out. what happens with a major patch? 1 year of waiting?

This is a "Major Patch"

A small patch wouldn't be an issue if patches were being released somewhat frequently. The last balance patch was June 2016. If it keeps going at the same rate this could easily be the last balance patch which would be a tragedy.

AND this is why everyone is worried about.

Anyway, in the time the matchmaking took to find me a game i present scope 2.0
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Kyle have nothing to do with scope. Actually he was tryin to covince Quinn to remove as little as possible.

I think scope is actually good. Imagine if they changed everything at once. It would be really hard to test all changes and combinations and then in live game there could be OPieOP new meta. Its really hard to test even those new changes, and I know that because I´m testing

It's very simple.
You can't touch Cons, so you have to work your ass how to balance Penals without touching Cons and/or doctrines.

So once you figure this out somehow, next patch comes where Cons and doctrines are in scope.

But again, you can't balance properly Cons without touching Penals.

So you end up with a car with 2 winter tires at front and 2 summer tires at rear and when the summuer comes, you switch front winter for summer but at the same time you switch rear summer for winter.

You can't balance 1 thing without touching other, that's why this patch, thanks to scope, will not be what we are expecting.

While the scope is quite limited, there is a purpose. Too many changes may alienate the community and force them to leave because it became a different game.

stoped to read the thread at this exact sentence.
You missunderstand something : all the community has already left for another games.
But some of them, just like me, still had the hope to come back when game was finally a bit enjoyable.

So making "limited" changes only make the coh 2 playerbase drain bigger and longer.

Most of the people left are 4v4 player or comp player, all the very good player left a long time ago because it is not competitiv.

Won't give all the name but it's pretty easy to find.

I think scope is actually good. Imagine if they changed everything at once.

You can't balance 1 thing without touching other, that's why this patch, thanks to scope, will not be what we are expecting.

well said!


(just some random examples)

mathmatically speaking the scope means that they are searching for a local maximum in balance due to a "scoped" parameter range instead of searching for a global maximum with the full parameter range

mathmatically speaking the scope means that they are searching for a local maximum in balance due to a "scoped" parameter range instead of searching for a global maximum with the full parameter range

Exactly, but do we know if it's even humanly possible to find the global maximium with all the parameters involved? And how long would it take? In real applications finding global maximum needs outrageous amounts of iterations and most of them are always quite away from it. Limiting the number of variables is an old method that is often used when you have to get the maximum with your own mind, not computer calculations.

I voted disagree because the Balance Mod was beginning to get too complicated. As many people have said before:
at this point we should focus the balancing of this game by making small adjustments and see how they change the meta. small patches every 1 or 2 weeks would be ideal!
my hope is that relic decide to give the balance team the freedom to patch the game at least once a month.
yes the scope is hindering because obvious stuff cant get fixed (like at partisans). but aside from such obvious stuff we should not change too much at one time.
also please understand that we can not make this a whole new game. relic wont allow that to ever happen!
I beg the Balance Mod Team to understand this as well. please dont make any big changes like moving AT to soviet T1. It wil never happen in the official game. Also dont swap unit from commanders to the tech tree or any fancy stuff like that. It wont happen with relic!
yes this game could have been something else and it would have been great BUT
as it is right now relic has (almost) completely abandoned this game and any changes that are made should focus on eliminating cancerous play (like no tech call in, AT-call in if outteched, sim city, cheese wire/sandbangs)!
good job on the cheese wire/sandbags btw!

In conclusion:
small changes
fix obious stuff first
then try to convince relic to make small REGULAR patches!

is it even humanly possible to find the global maximium with all the parameters involved?

probably not, but fixing the obvious stuff outside the scope would help greatly getting nearer

I voted disagree because the Balance Mod was beginning to get too complicated.
....

In conclusion:
fix obious stuff first

You are kinda contradicting yourself there. Additionally one might even say that the penal stuff happenend because they tried to fix problems outside the scope with parameters within the scope

Imo there is nothing wrong in making small changes and adjust as long as the patch come soon one after the other.

Making many and big changes at the same time make it difficult to analyze any problems that might come up.

The JUNE 21st patch changed so many things that is rather difficult to identify the problems that it created

You are kinda contradicting yourself there. Additionally one might even say that the penal stuff happenend because they tried to fix problems outside the scope with parameters within the scope

to some extend YES you are right.
BUT
the changes made as it is right now are already a lot. they should just patch the game with V1.6 and start the next iteration within one or two weeks... then the rest of obvious stuff can be fixed as well

Kyle have nothing to do with scope. Actually he was tryin to covince Quinn to remove as little as possible.

I think scope is actually good. Imagine if they changed everything at once. It would be really hard to test all changes and combinations and then in live game there could be OPieOP new meta. Its really hard to test even those new changes, and I know that because I´m testing

I know, but he is the the nexus between the "high command" and the mod team.

I voted disagree because the Balance Mod was beginning to get too complicated. As many people have said before:
at this point we should focus the balancing of this game by making small adjustments and see how they change the meta. small patches every 1 or 2 weeks would be ideal!

The problem is that is not gonna happen, we know this due to experience.
You can expect a bugfix patch, but not a balance patch in 2/4 weeks if there is any issue with this WBP (with some luck, just look at how long it took to fix USF mortar). Balance patch? Probably 2/4 months.

As i've said before, i don't think it's bad to remove changes to things like M20/M5/Puma/BC which might have big consequences.
On others, with changes that are more in the line of QoL than anything else, on units which don't see use, i find it difficult to justify (Kubel maphack, Su76 muni cost, passive xp for units which never vet, etc.)

I have to wonder why Relic even cares abuot imposing any particular scope to this mod in the first place. they fired their whole crew and the game isn't exactly thriving but for some reason they insist on being so particular about changes to their clearly flawed balance and dev? It seems like meaningless control-freakism.

Question. I think relic is working on ading more changes to the patch more than just whats being worked on in the WBP.

Im only thinking about this because there was a poll put up by relic asking for thoughts on the state of the P4.

So wouldn't that kind of hint to us that we have the luxury of working on a small section of the patch while relic gives us more changes on the other end?

Probably just hopeful thinking.

Im only thinking about this because there was a poll put up by relic asking for thoughts on the state of the P4.

Probably just hopeful thinking.

I am affraid, this was only axis fan topic. Nothing with Relic.

So wouldn't that kind of hint to us that we have the luxury of working on a small section of the patch while relic gives us more changes on the other end?

like Land mattress call-in now gives you 2 land mattresses and comet fuel cost reduced to 100?

In the history of this game, there rarely has been a patch that adressed the most glaring imbalances. This patch will be no exception, community input notwithstanding.
Ah fuck it, I don't want to be overly defeatist. But hey, all empiry points to just that. If I am proven wrong, all the better.

Question. I think relic is working on ading more changes to the patch more than just whats being worked on in the WBP.

Im only thinking about this because there was a poll put up by relic asking for thoughts on the state of the P4.

So wouldn't that kind of hint to us that we have the luxury of working on a small section of the patch while relic gives us more changes on the other end?

Probably just hopeful thinking.

this is actually my worst night mare...
imagine relic implementing new changes alongside the balance mod changes. now remember last patch where they "improved" miragefla's changes