Ost mortar is too OP(Vickers HP bug)

As a axis player..i can say: same happen in much games vs brit cancer emplacments...

mortar pits double morta hit a sqaud...instant wipe.
bofors turns so fast its turrent...i can wipe 3 squads on retreat...

For me was the whole thread ok, because it shows a BUG!.

But to talk about wipes from normal inf is no bug. Its normal gamelife
So i will leave this now. It makes so sense here to talk about, if Ostmortar is op or brit mortar etc^^

MOD ON:
If you don't have anything else to bring into the subject of the bug part (Vickers HP is 350, mortar dmg is 80) abstain from commenting.

Any further comments will be invis.

anyone who played coh 2 know that you need to moove your machinegun when there is a mortar.

the whole forum is giving me cancer damn ...

Well its more about, that the mg died so its a bug. it should be only decrewed.

Pro-tip from your Doctor vs cancer: Well then stop reading in the forum

Well its more about, that the mg died so its a bug. it should be only decrewed.

Pro-tip from your Doctor vs cancer: Well then stop reading in the forum

that's actually what i do, but sometimes i fail and come to see if there is any new news on relic balance patch.
end up reading some idiot post made by low rank player complaining about axis too OP or even bunker OP on one

The mortar will fire more accurately if a friendly unit is spotting for it (aka a friendly unit as a direct los to the the mortar's target).

It's why Axis combo : Ost's mortar supported by OkW units (Pios) are unstoppable by Hmgs outside buildings (or by nearly anything...). (on maps like red ball express, steppes and the like).

Thanks

The mortar will fire more accurately if a friendly unit is spotting for it (aka a friendly unit as a direct los to the the mortar's target).

It's why Axis combo : Ost's mortar supported by OkW units (Pios) are unstoppable by Hmgs outside buildings (or by nearly anything...). (on maps like red ball express, steppes and the like).

Thanks

The accuracy of mortars has nothing to do with a unit being spotted by other units - if you don't see a unit, the mortar simply won't fire (excluding the case where you see a unit that is damaging an entity of yours without you actually having LOS on it).

Mortars actually don't have any accuracy, that's the funny thing about this. They only have scatter, which randomly disperses their "shots" around the point they are targeting (e.g. a model of an enemy unit). This is combined with their AOE damage (which falls off over distance, with values for both the maximum AOE range, and the different damage zones within that AOE) to ensure that mortars don't have to rely on direct hits.

Regarding the original "OP" thing: Mortars could be balanced around dealing less direct damage but having larger AOEs. It could also be worthwhile to consider giving mortars a chance to suppress units for a short time, allowing their damage to be reduced at the same time (without reducing their general impact). Currently, the game is heading into the Company of Artillery-direction again, especially in 2v2s and above. This is not fun and adds nothing to the gameplay, especially when considering the differently performing mortars (which for the most part of a match will be a team's primary artillery weapon).

As I recall scatter is increased if you are firing blindly into the nether. Or decreased if you can see what you are shooting. One or the other. Maybe not the case anymore?

Oh man, leave OST alone. They are the waekest faction by far, and you are whinnin about a mortar?? are you OK?

just garden off

at topic: hopefully all these sh*tty mortars will get nerfed soon

Snipe

Before you start giving examples and information, you should check if your facts are right or wrong before.
All units suffer penalties when firing into Fog of war (FOW). Rule of thumb is that it's a 25% debuff on scatter while i think there might be exceptions (IIRC and i'm not sure if it was fixed but Stuart had something like 300% penalty)

If you don't trust my word then this is a Cruzz quote

Scatter angle and distance are both multiplied by 1.25 for shots fired into fog of war

No, it'll be reduced by a lot more than 25% because you are increasing the radius of the area where rounds can hit, and that's a cubic function.

It would be good if you could edit your post so people who read it are not misguided.

Before you start giving examples and information, you should check if your facts are right or wrong before.
All units suffer penalties when firing into Fog of war (FOW). Rule of thumb is that it's a 25% debuff on scatter while i think there might be exceptions (IIRC and i'm not sure if it was fixed but Stuart had something like 300% penalty)

If you don't trust my word then this is a Cruzz quote


It would be good if you could edit your post so people who read it are not misguided.

I know that Cruzz wrote that, but I couldn't find a single data point backing that claim up in the game's files regarding mortars. I might still be wrong of course, but unless I see evidence to back Cruzz's word up (evidence I already looked for, so it's not like I am doubting Cruzz in general) this is the information available through the game files.

The only related information in the game files is based on accuracy, which does indeed suffer a penalty from firing into the fog of war. But mortars don't give a damn about accuracy, because their shot dispersion is purely based on scatter.

I know that Cruzz wrote that, but I couldn't find a single data point backing that claim up in the game's files regarding mortars. I might still be wrong of course, but unless I see evidence to back Cruzz's word up (evidence I already looked for, so it's not like I am doubting Cruzz in general) this is the information available through the game files.

The only related information in the game files is based on accuracy, which does indeed suffer a penalty from firing into the fog of war. But mortars don't give a damn about accuracy, because their shot dispersion is purely based on scatter.

Look under scatter. There's fog-of-war multipliers for both angle_scatter and vertical scatter.

If you don't trust people (you shouldn't), and you don't trust the editor (yeah, it's funky sometimes), you can also think and run your own experiments to reproduce that information.

You can test this by going into cheatmode and barraging near a visible location (a unit has to be nearby to provide vision), and also barraging in the fog of war.

If that still doesn't convince you, make a mod where you change both attributes to 0, thus making your stuff be pinpoint-accurate in the fog-of-war.

PS: I think that the scatter penalties are a quadratic function. 25% penalty each direction in the cone will make the area 50% bigger.

PS: I think that the scatter penalties are a quadratic function. 25% penalty each direction in the cone will make the area 50% bigger.

should not be 100% bigger?
(25% applied on x,y and -x,-y coordinates means area in X 1,5 bigger and in Y 1,5 bigger. Impact Zone not be square (which would be 125% bigger), but some ellipse)

should not be 100% bigger?
(25% applied on x,y and -x,-y coordinates means area in X 1,5 bigger and in Y 1,5 bigger. Impact Zone not be square (which would be 125% bigger), but some ellipse)

The impact zone is not an ellipse, though. It's more like a trapezoid with the parallel sides curved.

In either case though (1.25 * x + 1.25 * |-x|) * (1.25 * y + 1.25 * |-y|) = 1.25 * 1.25 (2*x * 2*y).
(The original area before the multiplied set in was already (2*y * 2*y).

The impact zone is not an ellipse, though. It's more like a trapezoid with the parallel sides curved.

In either case though (1.25 * x + 1.25 * |-x|) * (1.25 * y + 1.25 * |-y|) = 1.25 * 1.25 (2*x * 2*y).
(The original area before the multiplied set in was already (2*y * 2*y).

While on each side to enlarge an area of 25%. You get side of this sqaure 1,5x bigger.
You got a bug and it's still counting enlarged on one side only.

(1.25 * x + 1.25 * |-x|) so you can not count so, you ought to result in extra one entire side x, no?

(2*(0,25*X)+X) * (2*(0,25 *Y)+Y)

For example, Square 2*2 = area 4 units
25% bigger side on each side means square 3*3 = area 9 units (125% greater)

Wouldn't 25% longer sides mean 2.5*2.5 for the area.

Wouldn't 25% longer sides mean 2.5*2.5 for the area.

Only if you added a deviation in one direction only.
But penalty works on the axis in the + x(y) and -x(y).
= deviation axis?

The Ost mortar is not OP. The vickers thing was just a bug or 2 extremely good hits on the Vickers which can happen, though it doesn't happen very often.

The Ost mortar IMO has a perfect range and does maybe a bit too consistent damage, but this damage is needed for crowd control against Allied blobs, especially in team games. Additionally every Allied faction has at least one mortar that outranges the Ostheer one

• 120mm Sov mortar has more range + more damage + 6 men squads with the ability to survive with one man left (which is absolute BS). Though it is doctrinal and shoots slower.
  
  
• UKF mortar pit has more range + shoots twice + has brace + can't be stolen + Shoots faster with garrison bonus. Though it can't move obviously.
  
  
• USF mortar has more range (or same, don't know) + faster fire + better accuracy.
  
  

The only mortar that really is worse than the Ostheer one is the Russian BM41.
When playing as Axis, I am ready to sacrifice a squad of Volks/Grens in order to get a 120mm/USF mortar. Simply because currently they are kill farmers behind your lines without any big effort. It speaks for itself that currently you see about 3-4 mortars in 2v2 games per side simply because the killing and wiping potential of mortars is so huge atm.

The Ost mortar is not OP. The vickers thing was just a bug or 2 extremely good hits on the Vickers which can happen, though it doesn't happen very often.

The Ost mortar IMO has a perfect range and does maybe a bit too consistent damage, but this damage is needed for crowd control against Allied blobs, especially in team games. Additionally every Allied faction has at least one mortar that outranges the Ostheer one

• 120mm Sov mortar has more range + more damage + 6 men squads with the ability to survive with one man left (which is absolute BS). Though it is doctrinal and shoots slower.
  
  
• UKF mortar pit has more range + shoots twice + has brace + can't be stolen + Shoots faster with garrison bonus. Though it can't move obviously.
  
  
• USF mortar has more range (or same, don't know) + faster fire + better accuracy.
  
  

The only mortar that really is worse than the Ostheer one is the Russian BM41.
When playing as Axis, I am ready to sacrifice a squad of Volks/Grens in order to get a 120mm/USF mortar. Simply because currently they are kill farmers behind your lines without any big effort. It speaks for itself that currently you see about 3-4 mortars in 2v2 games per side simply because the killing and wiping potential of mortars is so huge atm.

1-It's a bug. The crew should die but the weapon itself must survive with roughly 50% HP. Vickers/MG42 etc have 350HP and mortars only do 80dmg per shot.

2-Remember that OH/SU mortar cost 240mp.
-120mm cost 340mp and it takes double the amount of xp to vet up in comparison to normal mortars. You hit vet 2 (40% barrage recharge and less scatter) and 120m is just vet1. You get vet3 and you actually have more range than the 120mm mortar till it gets to vet.
It has equal damage but better AoE, but mostly on AA which is REALLY slow. Barrage AoE is reduced in comparison.
-Mortar pit is 400mp but they are 2 mortars (for some reason one is worst than the other). What is shitty about it is that it works really well when left afk. (IMO reduce AA range and make it more dependant on barrage aka imput player)
-USF is more or less a clone of the OH mortar. Difference is: it cost 260mp, it gets better vet1 (less scatter) and it has better barrage (more scatter but 1s faster rof).

All mortars are noob friendly on live, specially once they get vet.