Balance for infiltration squads badly needed?

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  =★= Pappy O'Daniel

  RtN.Hector

  Hector(UKF) meets Pappy-O-Daniel(OKW) on kholodny map

  by: __deleted__ map: Kholodny Ferma

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Jump back to quoted post30 Dec 2016, 09:52 AMMirdarion

No, the grenade cooldown should be implemented in any case. If weapon upgrades were to be implemented, their ammunition cost would need a significant amount of work though - Stormtroopers with their current upgrade costs are one the worst units at their manpower bracket, and that is with their call-in nature in mind (meaning that if the call-in nature were to be changed to friendly territory only, they would lose more usability than most other infiltration units).

That said, the work to fine-tune the ammunition costs for those upgrades would be a worthwhile investment, as it would keep the flavour and utility of these units while making them more tolerable.

NAME		REINF. COST	POPCAP
Stormtroopers	33		8
PGrens		34		9
Commandos	35		10
Falls		38		8
JLI		37		8
Obers		40		10
Ass. Eng	32		8
Rangers		33		?
Shock Troops	33		9

Jump back to quoted post30 Dec 2016, 09:52 AMMirdarion

No, the grenade cooldown should be implemented in any case. If weapon upgrades were to be implemented, their ammunition cost would need a significant amount of work though - Stormtroopers with their current upgrade costs are one the worst units at their manpower bracket, and that is with their call-in nature in mind (meaning that if the call-in nature were to be changed to friendly territory only, they would lose more usability than most other infiltration units).

That said, the work to fine-tune the ammunition costs for those upgrades would be a worthwhile investment, as it would keep the flavour and utility of these units while making them more tolerable.

Jump back to quoted post30 Dec 2016, 14:39 PMvasa1719

Stormtroopers are fine unit, its to close how units must use in theory, in practice after upgreid its a wipe machine with camo/nade/ and ability to kill faster.

Jump back to quoted post30 Dec 2016, 13:51 PMMr.Smith

Stormtroopers are, literally, Panzergrenadier clones with a -6.25% chance to get hit, lower upkeep costs, lower time to reinforce. Ah, also they get stealth.

If PGrens are OK, Stormtroopers are even better. If PGrens suck, what can you tell about the state of the rest of the units I listed there?

Jump back to quoted post9 Jan 2017, 16:06 PMMirdarion

I didn't say anything about upkeep or reinforcement costs, I was talking about their manpower cost. You know, that currency used to pay for new infantry units. You might have heard about it, it's only one of the most important aspects of the game...
Not to mention that PzGrens don't need to pay ridiculous amounts of ammo to become useful at anything, but I guess you don't like taking more than aspect into "the scope" of your viewpoint, in order to use more stupid sarcasm.

Jump back to quoted post9 Jan 2017, 16:31 PMMr.Smith

Reinforcement costs and upkeep are just as important, if not more, at determining the real cost of the unit. Upkeep and reinforcement cost is what you keep paying time and time again so that your unit can vet.

A vet3 conscript is not a 240MP unit. It's a 240MP + however many times you would normally have to pay to reinforce that unit so that it can make it to there.

The buff to the bundle grenade significantly diminishes this upkeep (veterancy) cost, as the unit can now reach those higher tiers faster.

Secondly, the reinforcement cost of the unit also determines how much veterancy you award when you hit an enemy. Remember how much veterancy Tommies/PGrens/Sturmpioneers/Falls award when you're hitting them in the live version? With the reinforcement cost bug fixed, that is also fixed. Obviously, fighting an enemy vetting faster than you is a bad investment.

Finally, correct me if I am wrong, however Stormtroopers still cost 300MP. Now can you please enumerate how many of the higher upkeep units I listed cost less manpower than that?

Jump back to quoted post10 Jan 2017, 11:34 AMEsxile

Timer is not solving the issue as mentioned above, it simply delays the moment you lose your squad from infiltration.

Isn't possible enable infiltration only from buildings being fully in fog of war?
If your opponent is able to know if a building is occupied, you can't spawn from it.

Jump back to quoted post10 Jan 2017, 11:13 AMMirdarion

That is all nice and dandy, but you're still ignoring the point that makes my other arguments work: Stormtroopers spawn in a state that is less than ideal, they have to upgrade first to become viable at anything. They don't compare to PzGrens without those upgrades, that was the core point of my argument. No other infiltration unit has such a high additional cost attached to become effective, not to mention the time delay that comes with it.

Then, if we set this into context how Ostheer works, we can suddenly see the problem: If we upgrade Storms to work as efficiently as other infiltration units, we lose out on mines and LMGs, especially the latter. That means we can no longer compete in infantry battles. Storms do not perform well enough (even with their upgrades) to offset that problem, essentially turning them into a trap for the player using them.

Jump back to quoted post10 Jan 2017, 11:34 AMEsxile

Timer is not solving the issue as mentioned above, it simply delays the moment you lose your squad from infiltration.

Isn't possible enable infiltration only from buildings being fully in fog of war?
If your opponent is able to know if a building is occupied, you can't spawn from it.

Jump back to quoted post10 Jan 2017, 12:02 PMMr.Smith

Apologies, I misread your post and thought you were referencing their manpower costs/upkeep (which already puts them in a much better place than the other units). In WBP, the G43 upgrade is now decent for Storms, and the Schreck upgrade is appropriately priced, since it also gives you maphax. The only upgrade that needs some cost knocking-down is the STG upgrade.

As to the reason why Stormtroopers are so disadvantaged when they spawned, it's not that Storms need to make up for that. It's that the rest of the infiltration squads are bullshit.



If the timer is long enough and you still lose a squad, it means you have been camping that spot long enough. That means that you should have had enough time to apply whatever countermeasures.

Currently there are no countermeasures. However, someday, flamer damage vs buildings will be fixed.

Jump back to quoted post10 Jan 2017, 12:22 PMMr.Smith

With the timer, you can always take the risk of trying to coordinate it with an actual attack.

For instance, you can click the spawn button and then start moving your main force to the location as your squad is about to spawn. This could potentially allow you to silence a pak wall. Or you could potentially end up with a very dead squad. High risk, high reward.

Jump back to quoted post22 Dec 2016, 18:43 PMMr.Smith

That's a good option. Partisans will require a cost recalibration regardless (they are definitely NOT worth 35MP per model); it's the dirt-cheap MP price that makes them an overkill.

Other alternatives are:
- Give a delay between issuing the infiltration command, and the squad actually spawning (say 20 seconds)
- Make the squad spawn with crap weapons, and they regain their default weapons after a delay has elapsed

Jump back to quoted post14 Jan 2017, 14:26 PMPolar Lights

Hope you are kidding :X

Reworking (OKW) infiltration squads would require major rework of OKW.

OKW Volks are pretty garbage(since vet nerfs)/comes way too late(obers).

JLI/fall spawn is the only real way OKW is killing a early sniper.

JLI and Falls (especially) are needed to somehow stay alive vs retard durable Maxim spam.

Falls still suffer from plus 50 percent explosive damage and weak vet bonuses.