Relic Winter Balance Preview v1.3 Update

Then those things we mentioned aren't working well enough as AT, because they're supposed to be used for AT. Some of them simply cant be used on inf, for example - the AT nade and faust.

Surely that's a problem that you've identified here? That people can't rely on the AT tools they have at their disposal?

Well those tools are reliable if you used them in conjunction with some vehicles hard counters, it's not about you being able to rely on those tools alone, it's about using the many tools you have to best counter the vehicles, for example if you just have an AT gun sure it works well and alone can do a lot of work and be reliable but you are always in danger of a tank flanking the AT gun unless you somehow can punish your opponent with AT nades. AT nades and fausts by themselves should never 100% be a counter to vehicles, they are one more tool you have to help dealing with them. While the PTRS for instance I dont consider them in the same tier as the faust or AT nade, they are in the same tier of the shreck, having it means that you are pretty safe for quite some time against vehicles without needing anything more.

Then those things we mentioned aren't working well enough as AT, because they're supposed to be used for AT. Some of them simply cant be used on inf, for example - the AT nade and faust.

Surely that's a problem that you've identified here? That people can't rely on the AT tools they have at their disposal?

They are just abilities, not serious AT. They are snares.

It's ridiculous to expect some ability like AP rounds to be an end-all be-all hard at-counter.

I'm a strong believer that CoH2's balance is hindered by design choices and that true change at this point is too difficult to achieve.

Therefore I think the modders/balancers should focus on performing elegant simple changes that improve the game we have rather than try to re-write the playbook in the game's late age.

Keep things simple, make small considered changes that won't cause massive butterfly effects.

After all this lately ruckus, we should make a step back and see if all of the other changes applied are 100% fine.
USF mortar, all the light vehicles (M20, M15, Stuart, T70, 222, Flak HT, P2, AEC, WASP, Puma), sniper behavior, 1919 Rifles, Guards, PTRS against heavies (hello AT hunter commander), OKW vehicles against Garrison, new PIAT, Stug E, rak...

Quick Question

Just in case, how is the vet1 "To the last man" ability from Penals been applied? For every Penal model been lost or for every model in the squad lost? (IB4 merge OP) I guess it's also added multiplicative.

What about removing the cooldown aspect of it + the cd buff at vet 2 ? Wouldn't this mean that the flamethrower performance doesn't get increased ?

Just in case, how is the vet1 "To the last man" ability from Penals been applied? For every Penal model been lost or for every model in the squad lost? (IB4 merge OP) I guess it's also added multiplicative.

What about removing the cooldown aspect of it + the cd buff at vet 2 ? Wouldn't this mean that the flamethrower performance doesn't get increased ?

The bonus is applied correctly based on the squad size, which also takes into account merged conscripts.

i just used penals vs mr smith in a hard faught game. they feel a little weird not being able to use them all at same time cuz certain ones have dif upgrades. but for the most part there are decent as an assault unit. i think the ptrs penals fit well into the game. the stug e was a pretty strong inf killer but it is weak so i think it might be fine.the okw aa ht change was decent

so this patch is all about soviet fanbois wanting soviets to have all kinds of different strats with penals being john mcclain.

Meanwhile werhmacht is stuck with their shitty 4 man gren squads.

I moved this here from the T1 viability thread because it more about Penal and less about T1. In that thread I have argued that Penals veterancy abilities and bonuses are problematic with the SVTs

At vet 2, their scaling is in inferior to:
Conscripts, AT partisans, Guards, Assault Guards, Grens, PG, Assault Grens, Osstruppen, Storm, LT, Cpt, Ass Eng, Pathfinders, Volks, Ober, PF, Falls n JLI.

Well it rather depends on how you define that...
Penal will lose vs Lmg Grens (range 35, heavy cover, vet0). The same fight at vet 1 will have Penals break about even. From vet 2 and above Penal will win easily.

So actually Penal scale better than Grens...

And there is another issue, Penal start as one of the strongest units for their timing. They also increase their DPS with every vet level contrary to other units that gain defensive bonuses.

In addition they gain more XP with every model killed (XP value of models) and can stay in the front-line longer via merge. That means they generally can gain veterancy fast and can become vet 1 before they have to face LMG grens.

Imo no mater what route is taken their veterancy bonus abilities and POP need fixing

Great patch, one of the most produced tank AKA T-34/85 still locked behind in commadners, and automatic weapon such like PPSH and DP-28 are still doctrinal, meanwhile some keyborads warriors tears bring the OKW pz4 into non-doctrinal, so much for the eastern front themed game, so much for the political correctness

Just so people have a reference:
I'm talking about direct values of accuracy and RA gained upon vetting and how they counter each other. So +40% acc is countered by -29%RA and 30% Acc by -23% RA.

Well it rather depends on how you define that...
Penal will lose vs Lmg Grens (range 35, heavy cover, vet0). The same fight at vet 1 will have Penals break about even. From vet 2 and above Penal will win easily.

So actually Penal scale better than Grens...

And there is another issue, Penal start as one of the strongest units for their timing. They also increase their DPS with every vet level contrary to other units that gain defensive bonuses.

In addition they gain more XP with every model killed (XP value of models) and can stay in the front-line longer via merge. That means they generally can gain veterancy fast and can become vet 1 before they have to face LMG grens.

Imo no mater what route is taken their veterancy bonus abilities and POP need fixing

I guess no matter how much we discuss the topic, you are gonna nitpick something and continue through that point even when i've to correct several points which you haven't acknowledge yet (Semi autos (the response was your POV of how they SHOULD work, not HOW they work), accuracy against cooldown/reload). Context matters.
You posted an incomplete list of veterancy bonuses which lack the RA which offsets accuracy gain from other squads. When we were talking about scaling, i told you that besides the 30% extra accuracy gained at vet3, the vet values are equal or lower to the list of units i mentioned before. Cause other units get's either -29% RA, +40%acc or either value higher due to accumulation at lower or higher levels.

You are purposely cutting the part where i said:
Once they lose 2 models, they are in line with or on top of them (due to the last man). So to actually be good you should be fighting at 3/6 (models), hence the "risky" role of using them.
Vet 3 accuracy + Flamer combination with SVT and Oorah are the issues atm.

Then for some reason you are making a Gren vs Penal fight when that is irrelevant cause one is a generalist unit vs elite AI unit. How many models are surviving after each fight? No one stays till each squad gets wiped. When grens are at 1 or 2 models, how many models did he trade with the Penals.
If the comparison was done in either of the WBP versions, reminder that they now Penals takes longer to vet. In comparison, LIVE Gren vs Penals there is only a 12% xp difference. On WBP it's 33%. So you shouldn't be fighting on EQUAL vet levels.

Anyway, at the end of the day we have a general similar opinion. "Imo no mater what route is taken their veterancy bonus abilities and POP need fixing"

I have argued that Penals veterancy abilities and bonuses are problematic with the SVTs

And here i disagree as Penals SVT (with new vet requirements) were not really cutting it out on the WBP.

To summarize my opinion ATM:
-I'm 70% in favor of a pure AI T1
--For that 30% in adding AT:
---10% in trying at least the M42
---15% in giving AT satchel locked down behind AT nade
---5% in staying with the PTRS concept (still locked down in tech)
-Flamer should stay but with PPSH and increased cost (70/90)
-Nerf/Removal of the 30% acc at vet 3
-Increase popcap from 7 to 8/9. MAYBE increasing reinforce/build time.
-If flamer keeps been a problem: remove vet 2 and to the last man cooldown buffs. Flamers doesn't benefit from accuracy anyways.

The bonus is applied correctly based on the squad size, which also takes into account merged conscripts.

Thx for the response.

100% in favor of a virtually pure AI T1 with the only possible AT being AT Satchels, locked behind AT nades.

Keeps T1 from being total treadmeat, and doesn't really mess with anything else.

Why not just try the frickin M42 in a patch

Jesus. Just make penals similar to riflemen. Just decrease thier fucking vet, give them dp and make them cost 280. Done.

I guess no matter how much we discuss the topic, you are gonna nitpick something and continue through that point even when i've to correct several points which you haven't acknowledge yet (Semi autos (the response was your POV of how they SHOULD work, not HOW they work), accuracy against cooldown/reload). Context matters.

If you feel that I have misrepresented your view I apologize. My point was simple imo if unit A start wining fight vs B as they both gain veterancy than unit A should be considered that it "scaling better".

Veterancy bonuses and abilities are imo a mess (and should be number 1 priority imo) and I was happy to read to that the next patch will probably focus on that.

In the end of the day we agree that Penals probably need some veterancy bonuses changes and I am fine with that.

I am not sure where we disagree about Semi auto weapons but G43 is not a good example since it is weapon upgrade and not default weapon and Relic has chosen a weird way to go about weapon upgrades. Volks ST44 for instance an assault rifle has better DPS at max range than K98 a bolt action rifle.

The only default (if I remember correctly) semi autos are SVT and M1 and Gren beat Riflemen in range 35 heavy cover (keep in mind that riflemen are already OP as required by faction design).

So should semi autos be effective at range imo? yes they should they should be third from the top behind lmgs and bolt action rifles. Should units with Semi autos (designed for mid to far range) beat units designed to excel only at long range? Imo no (at least as long as timing of the unit is similar).

snip

Good post.

About Soviet, I always imagined a kind of withdraw and refit ability for Conscript. Like you reach vet2 and you can replace the squad with an elite one, Penal, Guards or Shock.
A simple way to get access to elite infantry for a cheap price with some decision making. The ability itself could cost some ammo but at the end as reward for good play you get a elite squad for 240mp.

This could be implemented with really little changes, If you want to pay full price for Penal, or you prefer call shock or guards from their doctrine, you can do it.

I also imagined a similar ability for the T34-76, here again, you reach vet2 and you can replace it with a T34-85 and maybe SU-85. Same logic behind as for Cons.

If relic expects you to balance this game while only alowing you to touch only some of their units then they've gone insane.

Overall, besides some questionable penal changes in the last iteration of the patch I think you've all done a good job at ironing some of the most general problems in the game and tweaking the meta.

Keep it simple, you can't make big changes without having access to change every unit, building and commander in the game. Make the 1.2 live and lets go from there, having the automatch will solve many accesibilty problems (I currently only play 1v1 with a friend that has roughtly the same skill level as me) and will surely give you more replays to work with.

I would love to send you replays if I could get into more matches and I would like to get in more matches because I loved the original CoH and I want to love this one too, but current meta in live sickens me so much I've only being playing 2v2 with a friend

It would be great if these modders can actually play and win at higher levels, then come back to see what issues are actually important, and then have an idea how to balance.

Right now you guys are spinning around with weird ideas, including T1 needs PTRS, or....medic driving a Flak HT?

when you want to try out a new patch and people want to yolo with allied vs allied

It would be great if these modders can actually play and win at higher levels, then come back to see what issues are actually important, and then have an idea how to balance.

Right now you guys are spinning around with weird ideas, including T1 needs PTRS, or....medic driving a Flak HT?

If you play a mod, you know, that flak HT arrive at 4-5 min in the game, its to early.

Great patch, one of the most produced tank AKA T-34/85 still locked behind in commadners, and automatic weapon such like PPSH and DP-28 are still doctrinal, meanwhile some keyborads warriors tears bring the OKW pz4 into non-doctrinal, so much for the eastern front themed game, so much for the political correctness

+1