Kyle wants feedback on the PIV

In my opinion the t34/76 should be the worst tank at fighting tanks, but should always penetrate the armor of light tanks and rear armor of mediums.

The Sherman and p4 should be equal at least at vet 0. The Sherman should exceed performance of the p4 in whichever round it uses. The at shells should be better than the p4 as well as the ai shells. The p4 should however should perform consistently at both without an ammo changing mechanic.

The t34/85 as a doctrinal unit should perform more or less identically to the p4, but enjoy enough penetration to the point of hurting panthers reliably. It may not need to share the mg stats of the t34/76 though. While im actually fine with it myself I think it's probably a little too much and it makes the t34/85 a complete replacement/upgrade.

The Cromwell is just too cheap and accurate. But I really can't speak to the British faction as I really have played more against them than as them.

I dunno, perhaps im biased but would it help having a stock panzer iv with the short barrel, similar to command one, good AI and decent against light vehicles, have the stug and pak to deal with mediums, then perhaps have a separate global upgrade similar to vcoh's sherman once T4 is researched and increase its AT capabilities, perhaps buff its penetration, that way it scales into lategame. Just ideas.

If you nerf the pen of the Sherman you will never see it again lol.

This is the current values atm (coh2stats doesn't tell the whole picture). Red is what i could see changing:

PIV
| | | far: 100f; 110
| | | mid: 110f; 120
| | | near: 120f;125

Cromwell:
| | | far: 105f; 100
| | | mid: 120f; 115
| | | near: 135f;135

USF Sherman
| | | far: 100f; 100
| | | mid: 120f; 115
| | | near: 140f;135

This is the current values atm (coh2stats doesn't tell the whole picture). Red is what i could see changing:

PIV
| | | far: 100f; 110
| | | mid: 110f; 120
| | | near: 120f;125

Cromwell:
| | | far: 105f; 100
| | | mid: 120f; 115
| | | near: 135f;135

USF Sherman
| | | far: 100f; 100
| | | mid: 120f; 115
| | | near: 140f;135

cromwell caused the power creep since it had the best penetrating gun among the medium, and then sherman pen got buffed in an attempt to make the usf late game better.

t34-76 is still at 80/100/120.

buffing the panzer 4 penetration is at best a band aid fix, and frankly played into the powercreep. I would rather see the pen for the three allied tank brought down to 80/100/120 before UKF released.

the penetration hasn't really make the sherman as great as the cromwell, who rely more on speed and evasion to be great. Unfortunately the size nerf on the cromwell removed one of its unique characteristic.

the Panzer 4 should have the best gun, because its gun and optics IRL was the best among the four
the t34-76 should be cheap and cost effective
the sherman should be durable, because later model had the best armor and crew protection (metal helmet + water jacketed ammo)
the cromwell should be fast and evasion, because it was fast and had a low profile.

stuff like improving movement accuracy and increasing target size only serve to diminish the effect of skill. Shoot and scoot should be an important, don't make it irrelevant.

cromwell caused the power creep since it had the best penetrating gun among the medium, and then sherman pen got buffed in an attempt to make the usf late game better.

t34-76 is still at 80/100/120.

buffing the panzer 4 penetration is at best a band aid fix, and frankly played into the powercreep. I would rather see the pen for the three allied tank brought down to 80/100/120 before UKF released.

the penetration hasn't really make the sherman as great as the cromwell, who rely more on speed and evasion to be great. Unfortunately the size nerf on the cromwell removed one of its unique characteristic.

the Panzer 4 should have the best gun, because its gun IRL was the best among the four
the t34-76 should be cheap and cost effective
the sherman should be durable, because later model had the best armor and crew protection (metal helmet + water jacketed ammo)
the cromwell should be fast and evasion, because it was fast and had a low profile.

It is dangerous to buff the P4 penn too much on all fronts. It would make the PIV/T34-76 match up go south I fear. Yes the T34-76 is cheap, but it isn't really anything to write home about either. Rather have a very small pen buff and/or price decrease and get the rest of the tanks in line with the PIV, mainly the Cromwell.

It is dangerous to buff the P4 penn too much on all fronts. It would make the PIV/T34-76 match up go south I fear. Yes the T34-76 is cheap, but it isn't really anything to write home about either. Rather have a very small pen buff and/or price decrease and get the rest of the tanks in line with the PIV, mainly the Cromwell.

I would say nerf the pen on the sherman and cromwell, and decrease the price on the panzer 4.

the pen buff on the sherman hasn't really make them all that useful.

I would say nerf the pen on the sherman and cromwell, and decrease the price on the panzer 4.

the pen buff on the sherman hasn't really make them all that useful.

Yeah Ostheer Panzer IV is overpriced. It should go back to its original price of 115 if the other tanks aren't adjusted.

Please don't touch the Sherman, keep in mind it's the lategame unit most USF forces companies have.

Please don't touch the Sherman, keep in mind it's the lategame unit most USF forces companies have.

the current status quote is not kind to the USF either. I think the 75mm sherman should get 160 more hp in exchange for the penetration. The USF can use the sherman as their "tank" for their glass cannon jackson.

the current status quote is not kind to the USF either. I think the 75mm sherman should get 160 more hp in exchange for the penetration. The USF can use the sherman as their "tank" for their glass cannon jackson.

While that would be lovely, you'd need to consider other Shermans variants such as the E8 and Bulldozer and to adjust them as well, the Pershing too since it would be silly to it have the same HP as the Sherman.
Still not the worst idea I've heard here, since Shermans rarely bounce stuff, but surviving more than regular AT 4 shots is a big buff.

P4 is fine. Problem is cromwell and sherman.

Uh, am I the only one who thinks the sherman is fine?
Since when has it been OP?

Uh, am I the only one who thinks the sherman is fine?
Since when has it been OP?

I'd really have to say similar AT performance, FUCKYOWALKERS shells, better moving accuracy, and a non-negligibly lower fuel cost at the cost of just 20 armor and 1 target size definitely means something's out of line somewhere. It's not by a ton though - simply nerfing the HE shells' AoE (as has been long overdue) would make the whole thing feel a lot fairer.

the current status quote is not kind to the USF either. I think the 75mm sherman should get 160 more hp in exchange for the penetration. The USF can use the sherman as their "tank" for their glass cannon jackson.

Interesting idea, although 160 is too much. The Easy Eight currently has 720 health, and I wouldn't be opposed to upgrading the other Shermans (excluding Calliope and Bulldozer) to 720 as well in exchange for lowered penetration.

never touch a running system. leave the p4 untouched. changing may lead into another useless discussion that would not have existed without the vote at all.

never touch a running system. leave the p4 untouched. changing may lead into another useless discussion that would not have existed without the vote at all.

That's the thing the p4 isn't fine as it is. It underperforms for its high cost 350 mp 125 fuel, especially for Wehrmacht who have to invest large amounts of manpower to tech up.

Pen increase at all ranges, and moving accuracy buff (not as high as 75%) is whats needed.

The OKW p4 on the other hand I would say is actually often worth its cost since it starts with armoured skirts and has much better veterancy (which increase accuracy, even while moving) and also 5 levels of vet.

PzIV work with another stuf, which OST have. You cannot buf his AT role, without nerfing AI ability.
Dont make from PzIV super unit, making StugIII and Ostwind useless.

Nerfing all allies tanks, will mean unplayable late game.

Interesting idea, although 160 is too much. The Easy Eight currently has 720 health, and I wouldn't be opposed to upgrading the other Shermans (excluding Calliope and Bulldozer) to 720 as well in exchange for lowered penetration.

While that would be lovely, you'd need to consider other Shermans variants such as the E8 and Bulldozer and to adjust them as well, the Pershing too since it would be silly to it have the same HP as the Sherman.
Still not the worst idea I've heard here, since Shermans rarely bounce stuff, but surviving more than regular AT 4 shots is a big buff.

is the main reason for not giving the 75mm sherman 160 extra hp just to make sure the 75mm sherman have less health than the E8?

Personally, I think the USF tank line have always suffer from a lack of HP. the t34-85 have 800 hp, why not the the E8?

Saying that the 75mm sherman shouldn't have 800 hp because the E8 have 720 is like some kind of nightmare inter-service rivalry where the branches are too busying infighting to actually fight the actual enemy.

better to have one decent unit than a bunch of under-performing units.

is the main reason for not giving the 75mm sherman 160 extra hp just to make sure the 75mm sherman have less health than the E8?

Personally, I think the USF tank line have always suffer from a lack of HP. the t34-85 have 800 hp, why not the the E8?

Saying that the 75mm sherman shouldn't have 800 hp because the E8 have 720 is like some kind of nightmare inter-service rivalry where the branches are too busying infighting to actually fight the actual enemy.

better to have one decent unit than a bunch of under-performing units.

The e8 use to have much less hp but it was buffed to 720. This is a discussion about the p4 not the 75mm Sherman which is a completely fine unit that doesn't need changes. The reason you don't see it as much is the change in meta where calliopes and pershings and jacksons have taken larger roles in usf play and going for a Sherman is often a weaker option.

Why is this thread derailed about into a thread about the Sherman?

PZIV problem has more to do with it's counters and less with it rivals.

The problem with rival is the cost efficiency with it counters is performance...