Volkgrenadiers Kar98 is too accurate

The k98 is fine it actually the ST44 upgrade that is problematic. The weapon does not follow weapon profiles and increases the far DPS of the unit while vastly increasing the mid and close performance.

That upset the balance against other mainline infantry like riflemen and conscript who are meant to have an advantage in mid to close ranges...

Indeed STG volks steamroll over double lmg Brit/USF infan, its so unfair.

Indeed STG volks steamroll over double lmg Brit/USF infan, its so unfair.

LMG on Tommies do not change the role of units since it remains a long range unit.

LMGs on riflemen is also problematic because it changes the role of the unit from a meduim range unit to an all range unit.

(double lmg are questionable)

Two wrong thou do not necessarily make a right.

Two wrong thou do not necessarily make a right.

Yes, but you do not solve the domination of Tom over Jerry by maiming the mouse (Jerry)

Indeed STG volks steamroll over double lmg Brit/USF infan, its so unfair.

To be honest, the StG44s upgrade for Volks makes them seem odd, rather than unfair. I have never seen Volks with StG44s a big problem since when you upgrade them, they become "meh" at long-range and "meh" at close-to-medium range (Add the fact that you can't pick up dropped weapons after upgrade which also make Volks seem rather weird). Meanwhile, like Vipper said, units that excel at certain range will basically get upgrade that boost their firepower at that excelled range (Grens with LMG 42 for long-range damage boost, Tommy with Brens for long-range damage boost, Ranger with Thompsons for close-range damage boost, etc.). In the case of Volks upgrade, however, after you upgrade them, they just become "meh" at all ranges (They can't out DMG close-range units and can't stand up against long-range units). Volks excel at long-range, so they should have some kinds of long-range-damage-boosted weapon.‎

Back on the topic: Volks beat Grens? If you use Grens out of cover then that's your fault, not Grens. Volks vs Cons is rather fair until Volks get the upgrade. However, consider the fact that Cons is no more than meat shield while you can get Penals as your main-line infantry while Volks is OKW only main line infantry before Obers come out at Tier 4 (10-15 minutes later than Penals), if you nerf Volks even further, how the hell they gonna survive before Obers arrive?

The k98 is fine it actually the ST44 upgrade that is problematic. The weapon does not follow standard weapon profiles (as other weapon upgrade also do not follow)and increases the far DPS of the unit (although slightly) while vastly increasing the mid and close performance.

That upset the balance against other mainline infantry like riflemen and conscript who are meant to have an advantage in mid to close ranges...

Long range DPS increase from 1.93 to 1.99 for 60 munition. Quick, someone give a 3rd LMG for rifles to deal with these.

Someone, please torch these threads...

Long range DPS increase from 1.93 to 1.99 for 60 munition. Quick, someone give a 3rd LMG for rifles to deal with these.

Someone, please torch these threads...

You are actually missing the point the ST44 upgrade as some others make the VG perform much better mid to close while they retain an slightly improves their long range DPs. The LMG upgrade for Gren is much better because they continue to have the same role as along range infantry.

As I also explained the same problem exist with riflemen getting lmgs. This is not a specific faction problem is problem with giving wrong weapon upgrades to units with specific roles.

Gren and VG are designed to fight riflemen and conscripts far and tommies close to mid. By giving the ST44 in its current form one is actually messing with the relative positioning of units.

A upgrade that would increase their far DPS more and their mid close less would be far more suited. One could just call it ST44 on "single shot" mod.

You are wrong about the increase damage at long range with the stg44. We went through this in more detail when it came and had confirmation from Cruzz or some other knowledgeable fellow that the stg44 is actually a drop in performance at long range, because the kar98 has an opportunity to snipe models, whereas the stg44 doesn't. I did many tests myself. Almost always the unupgraded volks beat out the stg44 ones.

Indeed STG volks steamroll over double lmg Brit/USF infan, its so unfair.

Not wrong but you pay a lot more to steamroll Volks, not to mention in the case of USF all the toptier 1vs1 Commanders don't have 1919s unlock.

You are actually missing the point the ST44 upgrade as some others make the VG perform much better mid to close while they retain an slightly improves their long range DPs. The LMG upgrade for Gren is much better because they continue to have the same role as along range infantry.

As I also explained the same problem exist with riflemen getting lmgs. This is not a specific faction problem is problem with giving wrong weapon upgrades to units with specific roles.

Gren and VG are designed to fight riflemen and conscripts far and tommies close to mid. By giving the ST44 in its current form one is actually messing with the relative positioning of units.

A upgrade that would increase their far DPS more and their mid close less would be far more suited. One could just call it ST44 on "single shot" mod.

like bar ? Cause stg upgrade is a bar upgrade litteraly the same (or bit worse cause you lose 1 more rifle)

Not wrong but you pay a lot more to steamroll Volks, not to mention in the case of USF all the toptier 1vs1 Commanders don't have 1919s unlock.

Tactical Support says hi.

like bar ? Cause stg upgrade is a bar upgrade litteraly the same (or bit worse cause you lose 1 more rifle)

For the same reason LMG42 works fine on gren but LMG is problematic on Riflemen. It creates units that can perform good in all ranges, reducing the effect of relative positioning.

You are wrong about the increase damage at long range with the stg44.

I might be wrong since I checked the numbers from a site and did no testing myself. It rather irrelevant though weather the DPS is slightly increased remain the same or slightly decreases. Imo an assault rifle should not be as good as bolt action rifle at far.

You are wrong about the increase damage at long range with the stg44. We went through this in more detail when it came and had confirmation from Cruzz or some other knowledgeable fellow that the stg44 is actually a drop in performance at long range, because the kar98 has an opportunity to snipe models, whereas the stg44 doesn't. I did many tests myself. Almost always the unupgraded volks beat out the stg44 ones.

If somebody reputable ever claimed that STGs deal less damage at max range, that definitely wasn't Cruzz. At least that's what the DPS charts generated by him would indicate.

I don't remember the exact DPS curve of STGs vs Volks Kar98, however STGs will certainly beat Kar98s all the way up to range ~32. Very likely all the way up to max range (35).

Note that none of the DPS charts so far account for the burst pattern of STGs. The focus-fire thingy means that STGs (like BARs) can still register a hit, even if their native accuracy would say otherwise.

Tactical Support says hi.

The 1vs1 USF loadout is Armor, Mechanized and Heavy Cavalry.
Rocket Artillery is only ever used in 2vs2 and above, usually you want to prevent the German camping rather than try to delete it with that call-in rocket tank, the other Commander have reactive stuff that is far more useful concerning USF woes in 1vs1.
I also like the BAR more than the 1919, which I wish was a defensive weapon, but they removed that.

One of the problems with okw atm is that you loose almost any 1v1 unit engagement outside of conscripts: penals, guards, rifles, Infantry sections, in almost every circumstance. Even royal engineers make a mockery out of them at close range. They can hardly ever win anything on their own which forces committing multiple units into single engagements. Can't believe people are asking for a volks nerf at the current state of balance.

If somebody reputable ever claimed that STGs deal less damage at max range, that definitely wasn't Cruzz. At least that's what the DPS charts generated by him would indicate.

I don't remember the exact DPS curve of STGs vs Volks Kar98, however STGs will certainly beat Kar98s all the way up to range ~32. Very likely all the way up to max range (35).

Note that none of the DPS charts so far account for the burst pattern of STGs. The focus-fire thingy means that STGs (like BARs) can still register a hit, even if their native accuracy would say otherwise.

You're right, it wasn't Cruzz. It was a conversation with yourself. Here is what you concluded after a few of us did tests.

"I think you have a point, and that was a mechanic I was not aware of beforehand.

Rifles and LMGs have the "focus_fire" property on, which I assume is what turns singular LMGs into death-ray-laz0r beams.

However, SMGs/assault rifles don't have this property on. This is probably why, even though the affected units deal a ton of DPS, they don't immediately snipe models. I have no idea, however, how the damage is spread (do they affect multiple targets within the same burst or not)."

So as I said, dps does not always translate to statistically higher chance of winning an engagement. In this case the kar98 drops more models at long range and so is the more deadly weapon at that range.

You're right, it wasn't Cruzz. It was a conversation with yourself. Here is what you concluded after a few of us did tests.

"I think you have a point, and that was a mechanic I was not aware of beforehand.

Rifles and LMGs have the "focus_fire" property on, which I assume is what turns singular LMGs into death-ray-laz0r beams.

However, SMGs/assault rifles don't have this property on. This is probably why, even though the affected units deal a ton of DPS, they don't immediately snipe models. I have no idea, however, how the damage is spread (do they affect multiple targets within the same burst or not)."

So as I said, dps does not always translate to statistically higher chance of winning an engagement. In this case the kar98 drops more models at long range and so is the more deadly weapon at that range.

But there is a much less chance of doing so. It is better to do some consistent damage in every engagement than rely on rare crits to get an edge.

If somebody reputable ever claimed that STGs deal less damage at max range, that definitely wasn't Cruzz. At least that's what the DPS charts generated by him would indicate.

I don't remember the exact DPS curve of STGs vs Volks Kar98, however STGs will certainly beat Kar98s all the way up to range ~32. Very likely all the way up to max range (35).

Note that none of the DPS charts so far account for the burst pattern of STGs. The focus-fire thingy means that STGs (like BARs) can still register a hit, even if their native accuracy would say otherwise.

Do we know how much does this shots may scatter? I guess this can be done by testing it against Falls (which i guess they are one of the units which hug the most) or spawning several 1 model squads and putting them side by side.

You're right, it wasn't Cruzz. It was a conversation with yourself. Here is what you concluded after a few of us did tests.

"I think you have a point, and that was a mechanic I was not aware of beforehand.

Rifles and LMGs have the "focus_fire" property on, which I assume is what turns singular LMGs into death-ray-laz0r beams.

However, SMGs/assault rifles don't have this property on. This is probably why, even though the affected units deal a ton of DPS, they don't immediately snipe models. I have no idea, however, how the damage is spread (do they affect multiple targets within the same burst or not)."

So as I said, dps does not always translate to statistically higher chance of winning an engagement. In this case the kar98 drops more models at long range and so is the more deadly weapon at that range.

I was wrong back then. I did some testing about that a few weeks ago:

I was running a test: vanilla Volksgrenadier squads with STGs (focus fire off) vs Volksgrenadier squads with STGs with focus fire on. The vanilla Volksgrenadier squads won every single time.

Then, when I moved to 1-model vs 1-mode, focus fire did not seem to have any effect. Thus, it's as Cruzz described: The focus fire attribute for which STGs benefit from actually adds extra damage; it doesn't disperse existing damage.

Do we know how much does this shots may scatter? I guess this can be done by testing it against Falls (which i guess they are one of the units which hug the most) or spawning several 1 model squads and putting them side by side.

I've never tested this enough to find the exact contribution of DPS.

According to the description, the new target has to be in the scatter area of the shot (which is usually pretty long but narrow). The description also hints at a new accuracy roll, which would be pretty significant.

However, I don't know if scatter-hit candidates can involve entities other than soldier models (e.g., sandbags/fences), etc.

snip

I did the following test and left it running for like 15mins.

A: Invulnerable Volk model with STG
B: Inv Volk m.
C: Vulnerable Volk m.

-Made 3 lines of sandbag of 2 segments. Space between each other only for 1 model.
-Sandbag 20m away (nade range)
-Put B in the middle and added 7 C models around it. 8 models on the 2nd and 3rd line.
-A targeted B

Results:
-1st row: only 1 model to the left n right got hit
-2nd row: 4 models
-3rd row: 5 models

This wasn't perfectly alined (and i should had put 9 models so 4 to each side but i was lazy) so results may vary but it seems that it hits things in a cone which extends from the targeted model.

I was wrong back then. I did some testing about that a few weeks ago:

I was running a test: vanilla Volksgrenadier squads with STGs (focus fire off) vs Volksgrenadier squads with STGs with focus fire on. The vanilla Volksgrenadier squads won every single time.

Then, when I moved to 1-model vs 1-mode, focus fire did not seem to have any effect. Thus, it's as Cruzz described: The focus fire attribute for which STGs benefit from actually adds extra damage; it doesn't disperse existing damage.

Fair enough. But then what explains the real world results that virgin volks beat stg44 volks more often at long range?