Tank Destroyer Time to Kill stats

DPS alone is not the only thing account for being tank destroyer. You should take ability, durability, range and purchase cost factors as well.

You know something seriously wrong when you write that M10 is better than Jackson when fighting with King Tiger.

And I don't know why no list for ISU, Elefant or Jagdtiger? (Did I misread the title?)
Why there is pershing, but not churchill?

After I read your post, I feel like what you try to claim is "axis tank is under-power, buff plz".

Lel this thread for people who speak that no units to counter allies tanks
STUG LIFE

You are god damn right

DPS alone is not the only thing account for being tank destroyer. You should take ability, durability, range and purchase cost factors as well.

You know something seriously wrong when you write that M10 is better than Jackson when fighting with King Tiger.

And I don't know why no list for ISU, Elefant or Jagdtiger? (Did I misread the title?)
Why there is pershing, but not churchill?

After I read your post, I feel like what you try to claim is "axis tank is under-power, buff plz".

M10 better than Jackson???? Did you read it right ? Is name and below dps not the contrary

Stats at Max range:

Code

vs IS2:

     TD NAME (Sight/max range)      VET0 (seconds)   VET3/VET5(JP4)
    M10                          112.0 - 147.099     80.85 - 105.84
    Jackson (40-45/60)          67.125 - 96.625      30.48 - 45.34

vs King Tiger:

    M10 (35/50)                 129.54 - 164.64      95.85 - 120.84
    Jackson (40-45/60)          81.875 - 111.37      40.39 - 50.29

Stats at range 50 (Pershing is at 45):

Code

vs IS2:

M10             112.00 - 147.10      80.85 - 105.85      
Jackson         59.75 - 89.25        30.48 - 40.39       

vs King Tiger:

M10             129.55 - 164.65      82.93 - 104.53      
Jackson         74.50 - 104.00       22.35 - 25.95       

Did I read its wrong??

Did I read its wrong??

The list shows time-to-kill in seconds, not DPS. The M10 needs more time, and therefore is worse than the Jackson.

Did I read its wrong??

it's the time it take to kill the lower the better

It would be better if DPS was also compared at same range of 50.

In addition is real fight penetration is better than ROF for TD that use hit and run tactics. Imo SU-85 is much better now against heavy tanks than it was prepatch with it high ROF and LOW penetration.

Both are very good points. I also added a 2nd table with time-to-kill stats at Range 50.

However, in the case of Stug, in particular, the range requirement doesn't matter much. Just pop a TWP (which locks the target out of combat for 15 secs and guarantees a penetrating hit for 160) and chase after the target.

After popular demand I have added the following units to the roster:
- Elefant
- JT
- ISU (AP shells)

I have also added the Churchill as a punchbag.

Finally, the Vet5 stats for JP4 now, kind-of, account for the ambush bonus (I assume that the first shot will always hit and penetrate).

Why there is pershing, but not churchill?

I didn't include the Churchill as a shooter, because I only wanted to include tanks that are capable of DPSing heavy tanks.

For your curiosity, churchill stats would look like this.

(Churchill can only fire up until range 40)

Target               Vet0                Vet3
IS2             184.19 - 238.69      131.03 - 169.78 
King Tiger      204.62 - 259.12      145.56 - 184.31 
Churchill       156.94 - 191.00      111.66 - 135.88  
Tiger           143.31 - 184.19      101.97 - 131.03
Pershing        102.44 - 143.31      72.91 - 101.97 
Vet2 Panther    150.12 - 204.62      106.81 - 145.56     

As you can see, Churchill gets quite a nice DPS boost at Vet2. However, since it's the slowest of those 6 targets (excepting the hypothetical Churchill-vs-Churchill matchup), I wouldn't recommend using that unit to counter enemy heavies.

If you squint, you can see that, with a bit of RNG-luck, a Vet2 Churchill can beat a vet0 Panther (sameish stats as the Pershing), if the enemy forgets to disengage.

If people want to, give me a list of units you want to see, and I will add these to the script file that generates the stats.

My conclusions from this would be:
- The Firefly probably doesn't need its Tulips that much anymore
- We all knew that the Stug had insane DPS, and TWP on top of that. But holy batman, look at that!
- It might be a good idea to replace that Vet2 defensive veterancy on the Panther with some offensive veterancy.

-Firefly ain't need the Tulips for dmg but rather the stun because it's slow as fuck and UKF got no decent snares.
-Stug is good yeah, people has said it for ages so now Axis fanboy can tone it down about no decent counter to Allied tank horde. I only need its targeting to be fixed so the MG still shoot inf even if the main gun is set to only shoot tanks.
-Panther got bad DPS because usually it fights cardboard tank like Sherman or Cromwell, T-34/85 might give it troubles but it's not like Panther is easy to kill. I think we should keep it as it is maybe give OH version more accuracy because its moving acc is pure crap, especially if you fight from max range. Also Panther is the only Axis tank that can do some crazy dive to kill Callie/Kathy in the back so give it more DPS would lead to a slaughter. No body would build a Panther against IS-2 anyway.
Also is Command Panther any better than normal Panther at killing tanks, factoring in Mark Target, how much would it be?

Also is Command Panther any better than normal Panther at killing tanks, factoring in Mark Target, how much would it be?

Great suggestion!

I added a "Command Panther" entry in the table, which assumes that Mark Target (+50% damage) is always on (even though it only lasts for 30 seconds).

The list shows time-to-kill in seconds, not DPS. The M10 needs more time, and therefore is worse than the Jackson.

Well, I misread. My bad, sorry.

But the title should be fixed, I kept reading and assumed that OP try to talk about Tank Destroyer and DPS.

Also, I want to ask if OP can add KV-2 to the list. It actually destroy tank quite well.

Finally, the Vet5 stats for JP4 now, kind-of, account for the ambush bonus (I assume that the first shot will always hit and penetrate).

You don't need to assume:
For first shot fired out of camouflage +150% damage & +150% accuracy & +150% penetration

At max range.
Smallest target: 14 (dodge/ambu) 14*0.04*2.5 = 140% (70% if on the move)
Medium target: 22 (almost all mediums) 22*0.04*2.5*0.5 = 110% on the move

Penetration.
500/425: unless you are fighting JT, you wouldn't have any problem.

If you want, i can change title from DPS to TTK

We are complaining on the forum that the Panther is underperforming for about a year now and this is news?

The StuG is the only thing that keeps Ostheer in the game at the moment. I wouldn´t touch the StuG at all. It´s finally useful after two years. It blows up qickly itself and is the definition of a glass cannon.

I think it´s quite amusing your conculsion is that the Panther should get nerfed armor and that the StuG is overperfroming. Ostheer is crippled. And the reason is the Panther. Buffing its damage and reducing its armor with vet will even out and you are still stuck with a useless unit. Another glass cannon in the Ostheer arsenal isn´t needed. It´s a Panther ffs. The armor bonus was already nerfed years ago and is only a shadow of its former self.

The Panther needs straight out buffs in a time of buffed Allied AT + Brits.

So... StuG is OP, Panther(s) need a bit of buffing and Firefly... has basically a useless ability?

To be honest out of the 3 I think the StuG is the best, of course, it can't be compared to the Firefly's range or damage but still, I had a StuG actually strafe around my Firefly and kill it, that's how slow the turret traversal is lol. And yeah I know I could have turned the whole tank but I wasn't looking at the time, I just notice it was low health getting hit by something and then I noticed it got flanked and fucked by a StuG just before dying.

If you want, i can change title from DPS to TTK

Yes please! Is Time-to-Kill too long?

We are complaining on the forum that the Panther is underperforming for about a year now and this is news?

I have the impression you didn't read the entire chart.

Personally, I am never going to build anything other than Stugs, no matter how much Panther is buffed (unless it becomes bonkers OP). This is because:
- Shit (pathfinding) happens all the, and Stugs are cheap
- TWP is a free-win vs any kind of opponent. The more expensive the enemy, the better
- Cheap, low-popcap spam scales really well with command P4

Let's take Panther out of the context of Stugs though. Try to also compare its durability to that of heavy tanks. For your convenience, I have included the following targets:
- The Pershing (you can assume it's a Vet0 Panther, without loss of generality)
- Vet2 Panther

The Panther needs to kick some serious ass to make it worthwhile (it's quite expensive, and it's not very good in the AI department). However, simply giving decent DPS to the Panther without taking anything away is going to lead to grief. This is because the Panther:
- Is fast (not as fast as Brit tanks, but Brits aren't the only opponents)
- Has long-ish range
- Is equally durable to a Tigers or Churchills (and way faster than either), when the Panther utilizes that range.

Finally, try to also look how Panther DPS compares to the Comet. The Comet has far better AI, but it's not stellar at that either.

You are entirely correct that the Panther doesn't seem to have any real purpose on the field right now. However, what I am saying is that it needs to give something up, to get DPS in return. Such a trade-off will finally carve out a role for the Panther.

So... StuG is OP, Panther(s) need a bit of buffing and Firefly... has basically a useless ability?

To be honest out of the 3 I think the StuG is the best, of course, it can't be compared to the Firefly's range or damage but still, I had a StuG actually strafe around my Firefly and kill it, that's how slow the turret traversal is lol. And yeah I know I could have turned the whole tank but I wasn't looking at the time, I just notice it was low health getting hit by something and then I noticed it got flanked and fucked by a StuG just before dying.

The Time-to-kill table I drew heavily understates the effect of Tulips in securing kills. In addition to dealing a fair bit of damage, Tulips will completely stun the target, thus forcing it to stick around for another shot.

More crucially, by combining tulips and tank commander, this helps Firefly rack up veterancy insanely fast; and as you can see from the table, Vet3 Fireflies kick some serious ass.

Finally, Tulips are, literally, the only non-doc mobile indirect fire you can have as Brits. Snipers/LeFH/MGs pestering you? Try tulips.

The trick to offsetting the turret traversal time is manually rotating your tank to make it more bearable. It works fine.

Finally, one thing with turreted TDs is that they are easier to "blob". When microing turreted tanks, you don't really have to care that much about the orientation (unless pathing causes them to rotate midfight, etc).

*Lotsa Data*

Hey OP, is this frontal or rear armour?

Yes please! Is Time-to-Kill too long?




I have the impression you didn't read the entire chart.

Personally, I am never going to build anything other than Stugs, no matter how much Panther is buffed (unless it becomes bonkers OP). This is because:
- Shit (pathfinding) happens all the, and Stugs are cheap
- TWP is a free-win vs any kind of opponent. The more expensive the enemy, the better
- Cheap, low-popcap spam scales really well with command P4

Let's take Panther out of the context of Stugs though. Try to also compare its durability to that of heavy tanks. For your convenience, I have included the following targets:
- The Pershing (you can assume it's a Vet0 Panther, without loss of generality)
- Vet2 Panther

The Panther needs to kick some serious ass to make it worthwhile (it's quite expensive, and it's not very good in the AI department). However, simply giving decent DPS to the Panther without taking anything away is going to lead to grief. This is because the Panther:
- Is fast (not as fast as Brit tanks, but Brits aren't the only opponents)
- Has long-ish range
- Is equally durable to a Tigers or Churchills (and way faster than either), when the Panther utilizes that range.

Finally, try to also look how Panther DPS compares to the Comet. The Comet has far better AI, but it's not stellar at that either.

You are entirely correct that the Panther doesn't seem to have any real purpose on the field right now. However, what I am saying is that it needs to give something up, to get DPS in return. Such a trade-off will finally carve out a role for the Panther.



The Time-to-kill table I drew heavily understates the effect of Tulips in securing kills. In addition to dealing a fair bit of damage, Tulips will completely stun the target, thus forcing it to stick around for another shot.

More crucially, by combining tulips and tank commander, this helps Firefly rack up veterancy insanely fast; and as you can see from the table, Vet3 Fireflies kick some serious ass.

Finally, Tulips are, literally, the only non-doc mobile indirect fire you can have as Brits. Snipers/LeFH/MGs pestering you? Try tulips.

The trick to offsetting the turret traversal time is manually rotating your tank to make it more bearable. It works fine.

Finally, one thing with turreted TDs is that they are easier to "blob". When microing turreted tanks, you don't really have to care that much about the orientation (unless pathing causes them to rotate midfight, etc).

To be honest I think I liked the old formula better with the command cromwell, Tulips are either too good or too bad and it looks like there is no in between and Relic can't or doesn't at least want to fix them somehow.

Somewhat, it is sad to see people realizing 1 year after, thanks to MrSmith, that the stug is the best TD in game.

Somewhat, it is sad to see people realizing 1 year after, thanks to MrSmith, that the stug is the best TD in game.

In terms of cost efficacy yeah, best TD? No

I have updated the original post to show what happens when you group 2-of-the-same-TD to hit the same target.

As you can see, slower-hitting targets benefit more than faster-hitting targets when you group them.
- You can read the Command Panther x2 example as 1 Panther and 1 Command panther hitting the marked target at the same time.
- 4x Tulips hitting the same target is lulworthy

Edit: I just noticed that the exported data also contains the KV2. The data does not account for any bonuses KV2 receives when docked (which I haven't checked yet)

To be honest I think I liked the old formula better with the command cromwell, Tulips are either too good or too bad and it looks like there is no in between and Relic can't or doesn't at least want to fix them somehow.

Personally, I think that the new firefly is waaaaayyy stronger with the new Tulips. In team-games, the stunning tulips make fielding expensive vehicles a joke, really. With the reload speed bonus, it's a straight buff, really.