Grenadier 4-man Squad: A thing of the past.

I don't really think adding a 5th model to a Gren squad would actually make for a particularly big change. The unit will work mostly like it did before, unlike the change that was made to remove Schrecks from Volks, say. By comparison, this change would be quite simple.

The major changes that seem to have a larger impact on balance affecting both axis factions in different ways were usf mortar, penals, counters to light vehicles. Adding a grenadier member would solve Wehrmacht's infantry problems but have little affect on balance overall, or make Wehrmacht Infantry very strong towards any of the allied factions. Slighly changing a few units would serve the same purpose for all involved.

Your suggestion was to give cancer back to the faction. You don't fix it by bringing back old mistakes.




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If Panzer III, I agree. If non doc Puma I disagree. If you claim that 444 is fine and can fill that hole pretty nicely, I disagree with you and tell you that you are losing it.

If Panzer III, I agree. If non doc Puma I disagree. If you claim that 444 is fine and can fill that hole pretty nicely, I disagree with you and tell you that you are losing it.

I was thinking about Hotchkiss

I was thinking about Hotchkiss

Good good !

sry Tobis but most of us #TeamPanzer3

The major changes that seem to have a larger impact on balance affecting both axis factions in different ways were usf mortar, penals, counters to light vehicles. Adding a grenadier member would solve Wehrmacht's infantry problems but have little affect on balance overall, or make Wehrmacht Infantry very strong towards any of the allied factions. Slighly changing a few units would serve the same purpose for all involved.

Yes, let's change several other things instead of the one causing the problem to achieve the same effect, brilliant.

They are balanced against soviets though buffing them too much would make them too strong against soviets i think

They are balanced against soviets though buffing them too much would make them too strong against soviets i think. Maybe buff their RA and give cons a accuracy buff at the same time so they can perform similarly against each other

The major changes that seem to have a larger impact on balance affecting both axis factions in different ways were usf mortar, penals, counters to light vehicles. Adding a grenadier member would solve Wehrmacht's infantry problems but have little affect on balance overall, or make Wehrmacht Infantry very strong towards any of the allied factions. Slighly changing a few units would serve the same purpose for all involved.

No, I don't think so. The general strength of Allies over Axis, and the specific problem of Wehr suffering more infantry wipes, predate those changes. To me it seems more like fiddling at the edges while avoiding dealing with the problem these frequent squadwipes pose.

To me, it seems that adding a 5th model would be the simplest, least disruptive, and easiest to test and balance.

To me, it seems that adding a 5th model would be the simplest, least disruptive, and easiest to test and balance.

Vet1 volks with 20% more DPS and LMG, that is what you're asking for here.
That would walk over anything, including rifles in early game.

To have a zero sum on stats, they'd have to be as strong as pre-buffed 235mp volks.

Yes, let's change several other things instead of the one causing the problem to achieve the same effect, brilliant.

No I wasn't saying that. What I mean is that all axis support weapon teams, Sturmpioneers, Obersoldaten, Fallschirmjaeger, Jaeger Light Infantry also suffer from the same problem of getting wiped too easily by mortars, light vehicles. So changing the grenadier squad size will not have the same effect.

Vet1 volks with 20% more DPS and LMG, that is what you're asking for here.
That would walk over anything, including rifles in early game.

Thanks, but I'll decide what I'm asking for, if you don't mind too much.

I just said this would be easiest to "test and balance", so clearly I'm not saying just add a model and call it good. If the DPS output had to be brought down, I'd be OK with it; if the unit cost had to go up, I might be OK with it. The issue is the survivability of the squad, not some vague concern with the match-up against its opposite number.

No I wasn't saying that. What I mean is that all axis support weapon teams, Sturmpioneers, Obersoldaten, Fallschirmjaeger, Jaeger Light Infantry also suffer from the same problem of getting wiped too easily by mortars, light vehicles. So changing the grenadier squad size will not have the same effect.

Some of these are OKW units, and others are doctrinal. As such I genuinely don't understand what they have to do with a discussion about the 4-model Grenadier squad. We haven't even discussed pios and PG's, so why the question should be extended to OKW is not obvious.

As for team weapons, these seem fine to me in this respect; apart from the Soviets, the other factions also have smaller weapon squads, and I think that's all fine. Again, that was never part of the question.

Some of these are OKW units, and others are doctrinal. As such I genuinely don't understand what they have to do with a discussion about the 4-model Grenadier squad. We haven't even discussed pios and PG's, so why the question should be extended to OKW is not obvious.

As for team weapons, these seem fine to me in this respect; apart from the Soviets, the other factions also have smaller weapon squads, and I think that's all fine. Again, that was never part of the question.

Multiple other threads in the balance forum regarding USF mortar, t-70, weapon slots, stuart etc... address scopes that overlap with this one. I disagree with the initial assumption that grenadiers are the only infantry that have problems atm is all.

Well ok, but there is a significant difference between issues affecting line troops and those affecting specialists.

Thanks, but I'll decide what I'm asking for, if you don't mind too much.

I just said this would be easiest to "test and balance", so clearly I'm not saying just add a model and call it good. If the DPS output had to be brought down, I'd be OK with it; if the unit cost had to go up, I might be OK with it. The issue is the survivability of the squad, not some vague concern with the match-up against its opposite number.

Oh I'm not.

I'm merely making you actually understand what you are asking for.

Well ok, but there is a significant difference between issues affecting line troops and those affecting specialists.

Yes, but just looking at what has been suggested in the past month or so and assuming it is not realistic to implement many of them I find this one would somewhat cancel out other changes that make more sense to me overall. Take say single weapon slots for IS and riflemen, wouldn't it be a bit much to add another grenadier member on top of that?

No I wasn't saying that. What I mean is that all axis support weapon teams, Sturmpioneers, Obersoldaten, Fallschirmjaeger, Jaeger Light Infantry also suffer from the same problem of getting wiped too easily by mortars, light vehicles. So changing the grenadier squad size will not have the same effect.

Grenadiers are mainline infantry and the weakest such right now, with low survivability compared to all other mainline infantry units, well, next to IS but they can get an upgrade to 5 man squads so they don't really count after the upgrade, which any sensible British player would get ASAP.

Sturmpioneers have the same exact problem as any other engineer/builder unit, so they're not a special snowflake here, the difference is here that they're the only ones with hand held weapons now, which makes them, apart from infantry combat duty, repairing and building, an anti-tank role which means they'll be playing with fire and that's why they mostly get wiped, I also think Panzergrenadiers suffer from this as well, but that's another question.

Obers, Falls and Jaegers are all specialized infantry units, 2 of which are call ins even. At most I'd give obers a Faust ability but that's it for them, they're meant to be Anti-Infantry specifically.

Again, Grenadiers are mainline infantry, they're supposed to be dependable, but due to their low survivability they're not like the volks for example. But yeah, making them a 5 man squad right from the get go is one way of doing it, having a universal upgrade like the British one giving them, the Panzergrenadiers and maybe even the Pioneers a 5th man to their squad is another way of doing it, giving them a 5th man along with their weapon upgrades (MG42 and Panzerschreck for the PGs respectively) is a third way.

Grenadiers are mainline infantry and the weakest such right now, with low survivability compared to all other mainline infantry units, well, next to IS but they can get an upgrade to 5 man squads so they don't really count after the upgrade, which any sensible British player would get ASAP.

Sturmpioneers have the same exact problem as any other engineer/builder unit, so they're not a special snowflake here, the difference is here that they're the only ones with hand held weapons now, which makes them, apart from infantry combat duty, repairing and building, an anti-tank role which means they'll be playing with fire and that's why they mostly get wiped, I also think Panzergrenadiers suffer from this as well, but that's another question.

Obers, Falls and Jaegers are all specialized infantry units, 2 of which are call ins even. At most I'd give obers a Faust ability but that's it for them, they're meant to be Anti-Infantry specifically.

Again, Grenadiers are mainline infantry, they're supposed to be dependable, but due to their low survivability they're not like the volks for example. But yeah, making them a 5 man squad right from the get go is one way of doing it, having a universal upgrade like the British one giving them, the Panzergrenadiers and maybe even the Pioneers a 5th man to their squad is another way of doing it, giving them a 5th man along with their weapon upgrades (MG42 and Panzerschreck for the PGs respectively) is a third way.

I look at it from a different point of view. The underlying problem that should be tackled imo is 4-men squad survivability, regardless of role. Just because Grens happen to be main line infantry doesn't make them an exception that needs special attention.

BTW, Sturmpioneers are very different from Wehr pios because they are combat effective and way more expensive in terms of acquisition and reinforce.

Mortars/ISG/Pack Howie (not big howitzers or brummbar equivalents) should maybe get the thing where they kill a max of 2 dudes at a time, like mines are supposed to now. I say supposed to, because i haven't tested it and you can't actually trust Relic to implement a change from their changelog. Because nothing sucks worse than that "I hate you" letter from RNGesus falling from the sky.

Maybe not the pack howie, since leaving it the way it is would differentiate it from the 'Mericamortar.