Grenadier 4-man Squad: A thing of the past.

Simply, either reduce the received accuracy or allow PGrens to have fifth model(since they are not screening and merely designed to assault) Give them proper camouflages/uniforms for gods sake, not rainforest camouflage like a goddamn indo-chinese army.

pgreen could get an extra men or upgrade panzer sherck it would make the choice between ai and at

How about any more changes like OP suggests and we might just as well remove one of the axis factions and put its units as doctrinal choices, because soon, name will be the only difference between them?

Bullshit slippery slope fallacy is bullshit.

Just like all the other bullshit reasons not to give Gren's a 5th man at some point in the game.

Bullshit slippery slope fallacy is bullshit.

Just like all the other bullshit reasons not to give Gren's a 5th man at some point in the game.

It's not bullshit when half the changes over the last year have been to make the factions more similar. We're already half-way down that slope.

It's not bullshit when half the changes over the last year have been to make the factions more similar. We're already half-way down that slope.

While i appreciate what youre saying, and not wanting all factions to be made too similar....

With all due respect after years of the game being out... relic simply fail at asymmetrical balance and always have. At this stage, id rather just played a balanced game than cling on to a broken one for nostalgia. The balance (or lack there of) is what has driven most players away from Coh2, and is effectivly going to kill it. Aslong as when theres only ever 10 players searching automatch you dont sit there wandering why .


Back on topic: 5th man in the squad is one option and im not entirely against it since squad spacing will not save grens from some squad wipes and the cheese than is allied AI capability.


But i think before making them a 5man squad, we should try giving them the better spacing and instead nerf the allied infantry down to the grens level a little with the 1 LMG and see how that works for a while.

While i appreciate what youre saying, and not wanting all factions to be made too similar....

With all due respect after years of the game being out... relic simply fail at asymmetrical balance and always have. At this stage, id rather just played a balanced game than cling on to a broken one for nostalgia. The balance (or lack there of) is what has driven most players away from Coh2, and is effectivly going to kill it. Aslong as when theres only ever 10 players searching automatch you dont sit there wandering why .


Back on topic: 5th man in the squad is one option and im not entirely against it since squad spacing will not save grens from some squad wipes and the cheese than is allied AI capability.


But i think before making them a 5man squad, we should try giving them the better spacing and instead nerf the allied infantry down to the grens level a little with the 1 LMG and see how that works for a while.

I just feel that solutions like this are a band-aid at best, and don't actually work to fix the problems inherent with the game. It's because there is not enough effort put into the game to make real changes that can still have asymetrical balance, but relic only adds shitty attempts. USF mortar is an example; instead of adding a new mortar that functions uniquely to the faction (like what was in the beta...), they added in a normal mortar that is the same as all the other mortars in the game, but just straight up better stats. Weak band-aid attempt at solving the problem.

Bullshit slippery slope fallacy is bullshit.

Just like all the other bullshit reasons not to give Gren's a 5th man at some point in the game.

Alright then, so I guess its high time to give conscripts effective, non researchable weapon upgrade as well, right?

Alright then, so I guess its high time to give conscripts effective, non researchable weapon upgrade as well, right?

Relax, boy. Firstly, conscripts already have additional functionality in multiple doctrines (PTRSs, repairs, ppshs).

Secondly a proposal to adjust balance assumes a current state of imbalance. So even though you're obviously angry, there might not be a counterbalance needed, you understand that, don't you?

Thirdly, you already conceded to dropping double lmg upgrades for rifles and Infantry Sections. That seemed fine for you, so I guess you only play soviets, Is that it? Otherwise I find no explanation for your random rage posts like this one.

Alright then, so I guess its high time to give conscripts effective, non researchable weapon upgrade as well, right?

This is literally the only thing I ever see you do on the forums.

"Oh, people are complaining about X? Better somehow make this about Soviet problem Y!"

Bullshit slippery slope fallacy is bullshit.

Just like all the other bullshit reasons not to give Gren's a 5th man at some point in the game.

• MG34 and MG42 in nrealy the same place in the tech tree
  
• Volk Faust
  
• Panzer 4 J
  
• No more resource penalty
  
• Lefh Arty piece (needs a buff IMO)
  
• People are suggesting Sturms should get 2 shrecks
  

Tell me how OKW is not slowly becoming Ostheer.West

I would have been fine with nearly everything but Volk Faust, arty piece and somewhat the P4J

Volk Should not have Fausts. or atleast have it stock, fortifications doctrine should have volk faust as a CP2 ability instead of that useless oversized leig Arty Piece

Panzer 4 J And Panther should have been unlockable, let me explain:

P4J requires Med HQ to be built from the Flak HQ, Panther requires Mech HQ to be built from the Flak HQ. and Obers gets a small price reduction too. this would entice more Jagdpanzer 4 play, make HQ decision more noticeable mid game. And Obers get a price decrease.

MG34 should be buildable not by 1st HQ built, but by 1st sWs Truck built. allows it to come slightly earlier with out it becoming MG42 lite.

Sturm Shrek package price should go from 90 muni to 75.

Oh, and my opinion on grens? buff model hp from 80 to 82 and fix spacing. it'll do wonders

• MG34 and MG42 in nrealy the same place in the tech tree
  
• Volk Faust
  
• Panzer 4 J
  
• No more resource penalty
  
• Lefh Arty piece (needs a buff IMO)
  
• People are suggesting Sturms should get 2 shrecks
  

Tell me how OKW is not slowly becoming Ostheer.West

I would have been fine with nearly everything but Volk Faust, arty piece and somewhat the P4J

Volk Should not have Fausts. or atleast have it stock, fortifications doctrine should have volk faust as a CP2 ability instead of that useless oversized leig Arty Piece

Panzer 4 J And Panther should have been unlockable, let me explain:

P4J requires Med HQ to be built from the Flak HQ, Panther requires Mech HQ to be built from the Flak HQ. and Obers gets a small price reduction too. this would entice more Jagdpanzer 4 play, make HQ decision more noticeable mid game. And Obers get a price decrease.

MG34 should be buildable not by 1st HQ built, but by 1st sWs Truck built. allows it to come slightly earlier with out it becoming MG42 lite.

Sturm Shrek package price should go from 90 muni to 75.

Oh, and my opinion on grens? buff model hp from 80 to 82 and fix spacing. it'll do wonders

We're not saying it's not becoming Wehrmacht West but since Wehrmacht was the most balanced Army up until a certain point it's normal the broken balanced Army to be shifted towards it in a similar manner, same with the Allies, why do you think the USF received the mortar while people (including myself) are pushing for the British mortar pit to be also replaced with a mobile mortar team? The USF's limited opening and shitty pack aside, it works, it just simply works, Wehrmacht and Soviets are the most well balanced and thought out Armies regardless of whatever anyone thinks, without any stupid gimmicks or cheesy bullshit, Relic tried assymetrical balance just like in CoH but it doesn't fucking work, it didn't work back then with the Brits, it doesn't work with the Western Front Armies now.

So there's really no need to point out something obvious, instead suggest how we or to be more specific, Relic should, if they ever read this or take advice from the community on balance ever again, balance the Western Front Armies without making them too similar to their Eastern Front counterparts?

Honestly the Wehrmacht being the earlier rushing German Army with early war tech and also sWS trucks sounds fine by me while the OKW would be the late war Wehrmacht with slower and more defensive approach as well as being more static in general.

Soviets, USF and Brits would function normally just without their gimmics, as in the British mortar pit (check my suggestion above), lock out "choices" and un balanced Armor, USF's .50 cal, Pack howitzer and AA half-track as well, maybe even the Stuart.

Just keep their current teching system but change the other stuff around it while balancing them accordingly.

Just for the record this is my own opinion to standardize all 5 of the current Armies around an even sort of ground balance meta without any gimmicks or assymetrical balancing which has proven unhealthy for now at least, it just does not simply work, being too static, being too mobile, having all around mainline infantry, etc...

• MG34 and MG42 in nrealy the same place in the tech tree
  
• Volk Faust
  
• Panzer 4 J
  
• No more resource penalty
  
• Lefh Arty piece (needs a buff IMO)
  
• People are suggesting Sturms should get 2 shrecks
  

Tell me how OKW is not slowly becoming Ostheer.West

I would have been fine with nearly everything but Volk Faust, arty piece and somewhat the P4J

Volk Should not have Fausts. or atleast have it stock, fortifications doctrine should have volk faust as a CP2 ability instead of that useless oversized leig Arty Piece

Panzer 4 J And Panther should have been unlockable, let me explain:

P4J requires Med HQ to be built from the Flak HQ, Panther requires Mech HQ to be built from the Flak HQ. and Obers gets a small price reduction too. this would entice more Jagdpanzer 4 play, make HQ decision more noticeable mid game. And Obers get a price decrease.

MG34 should be buildable not by 1st HQ built, but by 1st sWs Truck built. allows it to come slightly earlier with out it becoming MG42 lite.

Sturm Shrek package price should go from 90 muni to 75.

Oh, and my opinion on grens? buff model hp from 80 to 82 and fix spacing. it'll do wonders

the problem started when they nefrfed ober too much and buffed volks instead
I think bringing back old okw without resource penalty but things cost more fuel, ober in tier 1 with out mg(only at tier 4) and giving volks old stats + sherck (when they were worse than cons but had good vet almost like rifle) would balance the game at least for okw and it would keep the unique design , it all started when ally fanboy cried too much about ober and they made them useless
This also means removal of p4 and sturm tiger back

I don't see anything wrong with squad spacing, and I don't think that this is an issue.

the problem started when they nefrfed ober too much and buffed volks instead
I think bringing back old okw without resource penalty but things cost more fuel, ober in tier 1 with out mg(only at tier 4) and giving volks old stats + sherck (when they were worse than cons but had good vet almost like rifle) would balance the game at least for okw and it would keep the unique design , it all started when ally fanboy cried too much about ober and they made them useless
This also means removal of p4 and sturm tiger back

And Allies will once again cry that OKW is OP, so back to the beginning.

Can we literally learn nothing from the long road up until now just to go back?

the problem started when they nefrfed ober too much and buffed volks instead
I think bringing back old okw without resource penalty but things cost more fuel, ober in tier 1 with out mg(only at tier 4) and giving volks old stats + sherck (when they were worse than cons but had good vet almost like rifle) would balance the game at least for okw and it would keep the unique design , it all started when ally fanboy cried too much about ober and they made them useless
This also means removal of p4 and sturm tiger back

I think the game is overall SLIGHTLY imbalanced in allied favor currently. Don't think giant changes are needed to fix that. I'd really hate to see Panzerschrecks back on volks, please let's make some changes to the Raketenwerfer instead. If you look at the multiple suggestions regarding USF mortar, T70, Stuart, weapon slots, spacing I think if some of those small changes are implemented balance can be achieved without redesigning things from scratch again and facing unforeseeable results. Obers are fine imo, maybe a slight reinfoce reduction but nothing major is needed. They are stock elite infantry while all allied infantry is doctrinal.

I think the game is overall SLIGHTLY imbalanced in allied favor currently. Don't think giant changes are needed to fix that. I'd really hate to see Panzerschrecks back on volks, please let's make some changes to the Raketenwerfer instead. If you look at the multiple suggestions regarding USF mortar, T70, Stuart, weapon slots, spacing I think if some of those small changes are implemented balance can be achieved without redesigning things from scratch again and facing unforeseeable results. Obers are fine imo, maybe a slight reinfoce reduction but nothing major is needed. They are stock elite infantry while all allied infantry is doctrinal.

well on old it was fine then they were buffed to green lvl and that was too much before they were worse cons so it was fair
btw penal are not doctrinal
and my suggestion was made to gave back identity to faction

OKW needs cheaper healing and a dedicated AT unit. Currently sturmpioneers are overburdened and you have to choose between panzerschreck or a sweeper and faster repairs, this is just unacceptable. The rakettenwerfer is fine when you have them in wolf packs and invisible, but as an early at-unit it is highly ineffective since it mostly always misses the first shot or hit the ground multiple times..

Ostheer needs an early light NON DOC vehicle that can actually deal with a Stuart, a T70 or a AEC on its OWN. Grens need work, they just can't deal with the current double lmg infantry from the Allies.

well on old it was fine then they were buffed to green lvl and that was too much before they were worse cons so it was fair
btw penal are not doctrinal
and my suggestion was made to gave back identity to faction

Your suggestion was to give cancer back to the faction. You don't fix it by bringing back old mistakes.

Ostheer needs an early light NON DOC vehicle that can actually deal with a Stuart, a T70 or a AEC on its OWN.

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well on old it was fine then they were buffed to green lvl and that was too much before they were worse cons so it was fair
btw penal are not doctrinal
and my suggestion was made to gave back identity to faction

Penals are probably a bit too strong atm, or their counters too weak and timed too far back, but I wouldn't call them elites. Just my opinion but I think faction identity is worth less than game play quality where cheesy choices are just working too well by default. Small, gradual changes can mitigate that I think.

What makes these balance discussions a bit frustrating is that there is never any feedback from decision makers. And how hard can it be to take say implement/revert small changes to penal accuracy or svt rifles damage within a few days, then look at feedback again?

If you look at the multiple suggestions regarding USF mortar, T70, Stuart, weapon slots, spacing I think if some of those small changes are implemented balance can be achieved without redesigning things from scratch again and facing unforeseeable results.

I don't really think adding a 5th model to a Gren squad would actually make for a particularly big change. The unit will work mostly like it did before, unlike the change that was made to remove Schrecks from Volks, say. By comparison, this change would be quite simple.

Penals are probably a bit too strong atm, or their counters too weak and timed too far back, but I wouldn't call them elites. Just my opinion but I think faction identity is worth less than game play quality where cheesy choices are just working too well by default. Small, gradual changes can mitigate that I think.

What makes these balance discussions a bit frustrating is that there is never any feedback from decision makers. And how hard can it be to take say implement/revert small changes to penal accuracy or svt rifles damage within a few days, then look at feedback again?

well penal are considered elite by the game file