Grenadier 4-man Squad: A thing of the past.

I was playing a bit of axis last night and I have to say I agree with all the complaints about grenadier weakness. Sure they can be played effectively and all that, but they just seem to not have the same power as other base infantry squads. Well mainly volks and rifleman. Cons have the own issues(as they always have, but that is a separate discussion).

So why not give Grenadiers a 5th man with a corresponding cost increase?

4 man squads are just too vulnerable to be mainline infantry. Lose 1 man and you've lost 25% of your DPS (unupgraded), lose 2 men and you have to retreat. Maybe some changes need to be made elsewhere too, but I think this would give Ostheer what they need.

The whole point of the 4 man squad was for some asymmetrical balance between Sov and Ost. Well now you've got three other factions in the mix and some of the balance systems for Ostheer and Soviets are just antiquated and need to be revisited.

L2P issue imo

Grens are not mainline infantry.

Grens are meathshiled.

Sniper is your mainline infantry

We don't need every infantry squad to be the same. Volks and grens are already super similar now, they don't need to be identical.

We don't need every infantry squad to be the same. Volks and grens are already super similar now, they don't need to be identical.

Hey it's not my fault relic decided to make two factions out of the same nation. And those two factions already share 50%+ of the exact same unit. It's not like they could have ostwind and flakpanzer or Panzer 3 and panzer 4. No they are all the same just somewhat different stats/timings.

And there are differences - Volks would be cheaper, have STG44 upgrade, have thrown grenade. Grens would be much more expensive, have LMG or G43 upgrade, and have rifle grenade.

I think the main issue isn't gren weakness so much as it's MG42 weakness. Grens main purpose should be screening for the 42/preventing an attacker from closing with it. Obviously this is a touchy balance, since a too-strong 42 will make US/UK players feel basically helpless in the early game, but given the US' mortar and UK's UC, I think the game would profit from a stronger 42. (Specifically I'd buff set up time to encourage more agressive play and make Ost less fragile when flanked.)

This approach would preserve faction diversity, allow Ost to scale, all while improving overall balance.

If you check the vet bonuses you will see that ally infantry gets much much bigger buffs with receiving accuracy than our simple grens.

It means grens are easier to kill than their counterparts late game.

there are other ways to buff the grenadier's hp without giving them another squad member.

better RA
better spacing
or even 2 more hp (considering how much 82 hp did for sniper)

Grenadier being 4 men is part of their identity. As someone who've played coh1 since release, a 5 men grenadier wouldn't feel right.

there are other ways to buff the grenadier's hp without giving them another squad member.

better RA
better spacing
or even 2 more hp (considering how much 82 hp did for sniper)

Grenadier being 4 men is part of their identity. As someone who've played coh1 since release, a 5 men grenadier wouldn't feel right.

+1

Too similar, too nostalgic.

Those are the 2 main reasons you guys don't want the Grens to have a 5th member to their squad?

Huh, well don't wonder why the end of the world is coming soon, you guys are fucking unbelievable, you'd rather not have a balance unit due to bullshit than a balanced unit without your bullshit.

there are other ways to buff the grenadier's hp without giving them another squad member.

1-better RA
2-better spacing
3-or even 2 more hp (considering how much 82 hp did for sniper)

While i'm not opposed to a late game BP3 sidegrade to unlock a 5th guy, why not start with the most simple changes like step 2, fixing the OP mortar and tweaking the LVs ?

Another way of buffing gren survivability without making them volk.0stheer would be to buff base hp from 80 to 82

Or we can just make more volk.

Too similar, too nostalgic.

Those are the 2 main reasons you guys don't want the Grens to have a 5th member to their squad?

Huh, well don't wonder why the end of the world is coming soon, you guys are fucking unbelievable, you'd rather not have a balance unit due to bullshit than a balanced unit without your bullshit.

Let's just remove every faction and only have Ostheer vs Ostheer mirror matches. Perfectly balanced game now.

There are many reasons why grens have dropped off the perch when it come to mainline infantry.

The Power creep:

Buffs to USF riflemen Received accuracy and also buffs to the bar which can be equipped twice like the lmg whilst grens only receive 1 lmg(not that grens should receive two, but 2 m1919 lmg on rifles is sorta dumb).

Cons have received buffs to RA also however they still struggle against upgraded inf but that is a separate issue. Penals are now capable of going toe to toe with grens even in the late game. Plus soviet inf with cheaper reinforce and 6 man squads mean they will bleed less manpower and also less prone to wipes in the game.

Brits received reduced reinforce costs for tommies a while back and they can also be upgraded with double brens/lmgs like usf rifles and they are superior to grens, especially when in cover.

Poor squad spacing and also the strength of allied indirect fire currently also make grens life pretty difficult in the mid/late game.

Don't get me wrong grens are still great infantry for support weapon heavy faction and can be stupidly A-moved with lmgs too. But they have lost much of their strength due to the power creep of allied infantry and the fact they haven't received much in return I think they could use a small tweak but nothing huge.

Grenadier being 4 men is part of their identity. As someone who've played coh1 since release, a 5 men grenadier wouldn't feel right.

However... CoH2 grens are not exactly the same as CoH1 grens. Because in CoH1, the T1 infantry unit was volks, and Grens were a T2 unit. Moreover, the relationship between both German units and their opposition is quite different in CoH2.

First and foremost, there is a huge difference in the survivability of the Axis squads. In CoH1, a US Rifle squad had 6 men with 55HP each, for a total of 330HP in the sqaud.

Up against this went a Volksgren squad, with 5 models, at 60HP each, for a total of 300HP in the squad. And of course the Gren squad, with 80HP each, for a total of 320HP.

So in CoH1, each squad had a similar amount of HP, even if the number of models differed. 300, 320, 330. But this is not the case in CoH2; all basic infantry have the same 80HP. Which means that a Conscript squad has 480HP, a Rifles squad has 400HP, and a Grens squad has 320HP.

This change is especially notable when it comes to explosions and AOE attacks. The fact was that in CoH1 it took a lot more damage to kill a gren, and even a volksgren, than to kill a rifleman. So even when they were being bombed and shelled and mortared, they could not only take damage and remain combat effective for longer, but they were much less likely to suffer a wipe. And then if they did get wipe, because of the veterancy system they had, it didn't matter as much.

CoH2 grens are much, much weaker than their CoH1 counterparts. And that's maybe possibly OK, now that they are T1 units. On the other hand, Wehr no longer has a T2 line infantry unit, only the very expensive PG's who are medium ranged, don't have access to LMG42, and are just as squishy.

And Wehr also no longer has the more survivable Volks to screen the grens, cap points, etc.

CoH2 grens are really quite different to CoH1 grens, and I don't think nostalgia is a sufficient reason to keep them as they are. CoH1 kept that main infantry units roughly similar to each other, but in CoH2, the smaller squads really are much weaker. The grenade that in CoH1 would have killed a few grens, but left the squad unwiped, is now much more likely to wipe.

It isn't really surprising then that we so often see Wehr late game dominated by vehicles, with only a scattering of surviving infantry. And at that point, building more grens in the face of BAR'd up rifles and Shocks and whatnot is probably a losing proposition. The relative weakness of CoH2 grens is not a matter of perception or Axis fandom.

Personally, at this point, I think upgrading grens to a 5-model squad is a reasonable thing to suggest. It still won't make them as survivable as their CoH1 cousins, but it will at least make them more viable and reliable than they are at present.

Too similar, too nostalgic.

Those are the 2 main reasons you guys don't want the Grens to have a 5th member to their squad?

Huh, well don't wonder why the end of the world is coming soon, you guys are fucking unbelievable, you'd rather not have a balance unit due to bullshit than a balanced unit without your bullshit.

How about any more changes like OP suggests and we might just as well remove one of the axis factions and put its units as doctrinal choices, because soon, name will be the only difference between them?

How about any more changes like OP suggests and we might just as well remove one of the axis factions and put its units as doctrinal choices, because soon, name will be the only difference between them?

What do you suggest then?

problem with a 4model squad:

- recrew team weapons: u can lose the 4. model fast if u take for example a mg (retreat/ incoming enemys out of fow)

- many wipes trough grenades, indirect fire, tank shells

- if u lost 1 model..u lose 25% firepower...by 2 model..u must retreat

- they often clump togehter and wipe more often than big squad where models stay away

- u can´t hold much weapons like a 6man squad

- if u retreat its better to have more model on retreat...2 die faster than 3..

problem with a 4model squad:

- recrew team weapons: u can lose the 4. model fast if u take for example a mg (retreat/ incoming enemys out of fow)

- many wipes trough grenades, indirect fire, tank shells

- if u lost 1 model..u lose 25% firepower...by 2 model..u must retreat

- they often clump togehter and wipe more often than big squad where models stay away

- u can´t hold much weapons like a 6man squad

- if u retreat its better to have more model on retreat...2 die faster than 3..

+1. Except im pretty sure grens have the same number of weapon slots as other units.

There are no problem with the Grens... everything else is f*cked up.
Mortars are f*cked up... in general. Especially USF one, when it hit a f*cking retreating soldier in the head. Double LMGs and allied vet3 bonuses which function like OKW vet5 is also f*cked up. If those would be fixed, no one would give a flying f*ck about having 4 men infantry squads.

• Remove double LMGs from racks
  
• Decrease mortar accuracy for EVERY mortar in the game
  
• Infantry green cover should provide 75% damage reduction against explosive shells (like mortar fire)
  
• All mortars should do +25% dmg vs buildings and structures