Company of Heroes III - Your expectations

The below is one of the more realistically possible proposals.

The options need to use essentially the same game engines as COH1 or COH2. For a company like Relic to make a new game essentially from scratch just isn't in the cards.

By 2018 or 2019 there will be a whole new crop of gamers, so maybe a new audience? Of course we will no longer be in the shadows of Saving Private Ryan and Band of Brothers, which laid the groundwork for the popularity of the games.

But sticking to the pieces that work means a COH3 (or even a COH2.5 made with much less resources) is possible. Take the factions and tree design of COH1 (or even just the original vanilla factions) and add a few doodads from COH2 (trusight, etc.). Add back target tables.

But I don't think it will happen. The designers of COH1 haven't existed since before Tales of Valor. There became a fetish for "difference" in the factions. (One has a mortar so another shouldn't, etc.) there wasn't an appreciation for just how similar Wehr and US were in comparison to today's COH2 factions, yet how differently they played despite that, and that went well beyond the bought vs. earned veterancy.

The US mortar was sort of like the Wehr mortar, the bike sort of like the jeep, both had AT tanks (m10s vs StuGs), medium tanks, light vehicles, AT guns. but the little differences (some bigger than others) and the different tech levels made them still feel very different. And the commander trees really did change the style of play and added to the strategic choices, rather than just a choice of doodads and upgrades.

But Relic today doesn't want that. The decision is that people want difference and the more difference the better. That flaw is proven by all the changes made since to smooth out those balances.

COH2.5, or a "new" COH1 is possible. Heck, modders could probably design it pretty well. It could (probably) be done cheaply. I am not sure in the age of Counterwatch, DOTA, etc. that there is an audience. But if made cheaply it could make money so you should use the older tools and design that had proved to work instead of redesigning it from scratch.

My hopes is that Relic learns from the mistakes of CoH1 and CoH2 and doesn't revive them in CoH3 when they run out of ideas for new factions.

This I hope that CoH3 will not see the likes of:
- Mortar Pits / Bofors / FlakHQ / Orbital Death Canons
- Forward Trucks
- Aura units that focus on BS raw buffs (e.g., UKF officer, P4) rather than utility (e.g., OST officer)
- Powerful, cheap call-ins invalidating expensive tech
- Dirt-cheap/free recon options invalidating true sight (UKF free recon, flares, etc)
- IR-halftrack, Kubelwagen, Valentine passive see-through in particular. I mean, come on.

With respect to Tank vs Infantry combat, I think CoH1 had a perfect balance:
- Both Tanks and infantry AT suffered from elevation/obstacles (in CoH2 zooks/schrecks are homing)
- Crushing infantry meant your tank would slow down. There was a clear trade-off
- Very limited snares that were difficult to pull off
- Infantry AT had a very long aim-time which made schreck-blobbing unreliable
- (except for 222's in CoH1. Those things were messed up)

I think some of the ideas of Tank-vs-infantry combat in CoH2 are pretty decent, but it doesn't feel even:
- Schrecks/Zooks have 0 aim-time and are homing missiles with super-long-range and guaranteed good-damage.
- Tank shells will just get stopped at the first possible elevation
- Instead, tanks have to rely on BS-strong crushing, of which Cromwell/M10 are ridiculously good at
- To fight this off, you have the proliferation of easy snares, everywhere. The latter makes snares feel like "A basic tool that all mainline-infantry should have", although it should have been a rare luxury, really.
- Finally, since you have snares everywhere, Light Vehicles should be BS-strong, so that they remain useful.

Overall, I prefer CoH2 over CoH1 (even though I preferred CoH1 at the launch of CoH2), but I believe that a CoH3 that marries the best of both worlds will be the dream.

Basically, CoH3 will be a great game if and only if no CoH3 faction has features that have any passing resemblance to any of the following two factions:
- CoH1 Brits (pre- and post-Kangaroo)
- CoH2 OKW at WFA-release

Either set in the african campaign, or maybe a game centered around the Korean war. But wont probably happen. COH2 hasn't really been a huge success for Relic, I highly doubt they will make a third installment, which is sad to think about really :/..

By 2018 or 2019 there will be a whole new crop of gamers, so maybe a new audience? Of course we will no longer be in the shadows of Saving Private Ryan and Band of Brothers, which laid the groundwork for the popularity of the games.

This is the biggest thing that could see CoH3 getting made. Since the late 2000s there has been a decline in interest in WW2 games. Now this can be attributed to a number of things but the biggest is simply the fact that there are only so many times players can see the same assets and scenarios without getting bored, and most current consumers had their fill of that playing MoH and CoD in the late 90s/early 2000s.

However the new generation of consumers were still in nappies while those games were in their heyday and conversely are starting to get sick of the same pseduo-realistic modern day military games. So they represent something of an untapped market, especially for a WW2 game that doesn't follow the same old Normandy/Stalingrad storyline.

As you mentioned SPR and BoB were big drivers for popularity of WW2 games, and we haven't had anything like that since those were released. Part of that is because the public has less stomach for that 'America, Fuck Yeah, war is awesome!' style of war film, but nonetheless a successful WW2 film or TV series could be a major driver for revival of the genre, given the untapped market I mentioned previously.

Now, where are these big releases? Well we have that Mel Gibson movie coming soon but given Gibson's reputation and the highly questionable casting of Andrew Garfield in the lead role I don't see that doing well. Nolan's upcoming Dunkirk film looks more promising although I doubt it will gain as much traction simply because it doesn't features Americans prominently (but perhaps there will be a badass American agent/commando/pilot shoehorned in somewhere to fill that gap). I think the biggest potential lies in a HBO/netflix-style big-budget TV series. If such a venture succeeds, THEN I can see CoH3 getting made.

Either set in the african campaign, or maybe a game centered around the Korean war. But wont probably happen. COH2 hasn't really been a huge success for Relic, I highly doubt they will make a third installment, which is sad to think about really :/..

They'd sold well over 4 million copies while I was there and presumably more since then. Relic games also have long tails, meaning they continue to bring in revenue well after other games no longer do. The studio makes a significant amount of money from its back catalogue. Just because you don't feel like CoH2 was a success doesn't change that it had a strong launch for sales and continued well after that.

That was longer than I intended but very much what I'd like to see out of a COH3. A tigher, more condensed game focusing on three unique factions that has a much more fleshed out system than what is currently in.


While I am at it I'd like a unicorn and peace in the middle east.

Yes please, make COH great again, Cosmetics DLC only, if dev want new contents, they should make a full expansion pack, no piecemeal game making like this.
Also please bring back COH1 commander style.

- Aura units that focus on BS raw buffs (e.g., UKF officer, P4) rather than utility (e.g., OST officer)

Ironically, the Artillerieoffizier is the worst out of all officer units. After the buff, even the Major has more purpose (on top of being free, instead of costing as much as a whole frontline infantry unit).

Ironically, the Artillerieoffizier is the worst out of all officer units. After the buff, even the Major has more purpose (on top of being free, instead of costing as much as a whole frontline infantry unit).

Dude is the worst because of the meta and he's generally not in very good commanders, also the officer model used to be super durable so he can run up and call arty (his arty got increased range when respond to his mark so mortar spam can be a thing when fighting old maxim spam) or just be a very durable scout unit (Super durable model + old WM vet reduced received dmg means the guy is practically unkillable).
Also I would prefer Relic to remove the BS aura of Sturm Officer altogether and gives him actual vet that improve his ability like increase cast range or reduce muni cost.

Honestly, a single Axis faction that had different voice actor packs and skins to mimic the Afrika Korps or an Italian or Hungarian themed division would probably have worked out well. An Allied faction with British, French, American, ANZAC, etc flavors would have likewise worked.

Things like voice acting seemed to be more interesting to Relic's upper management than gameplay anyway.

Man, I don't know if there will be a third but it sure would be great.

I think they should simplify things a little bit, get back to basics. All the commanders and specialized units and abilities only make the game more difficult to balance.

I remember going from coh1 to coh2 I was hoping for something very similar with updated graphics. What we got was a new game with very cartoon style graphics. I wish they would go back to graphic style of coh1 but updated for hypothetical coh3.

I think it would be a productive talk to think about how to monetize the game.

In CoH2 we had commanders DLC, theater of War and then additional factions.

Lets break down how these failed to meet our oft-impossible requirements.

Commander DLC

-Few good commanders, mostly filler with the oddballs being picked due to flavor of the month bugs or quiet shifts in the meta. Party-sans with shocktrooper dps for example. I understand its a way to introduce new ideas but doing it for financial incentive is deeeeply flawed.

-Added units in organically which are nigh impossible to balance

-Frequently forgotten about or overlooked once they are in the discount bin

-Constant cries of "pay 2 win" because Soviet Windustry/Assgren spam/etc were never taken into account in the bones of the game and are this weird duct taped addition.

-Because you paid for the specific commander nerfs to that specific doctorine are viewed as personal slights and not really looked at in a justified/unjustified way. If I bought elite troops and loved the mechanics but then it changed by 75% I am going to feel like I got the short end of the stick


Theater of War : I have played exactly 30 seconds of this and cant comment on how good or bad it was but :
-There is a very large portion of the community that preferes the cinematic game experience rather than a tightly balanced mechanically complex 1v1 game. This is now their game mode.
-4v4 compstomp personified. These are a great opportunity to do the narrative thing and let the more casual players still do their thing while getting some income from it.

Additional faction Expansions

- The power creep here has been exponential. The game has changed so much from launch day that really they are doing the best they can but it really highlights how dated some of the core concepts are for other armies.

- I don't agree at all with releasing additional factions after launch if they are not the most tightly controlled, well balanced and well thought out additions you could make. When they are on a completely different system of values than when you initially made the game and then shoe horn them in ofcourse they wont fit very well.


So it leaves the question : how could they do the DLC thing that is so ubiquitous with gaming at the moment? Would you pay 100$ to get the game and have all the content unlocked? Would you prefer skins/voice pack DLC?


Personally I'd prefer them to sell off DLC as missions for theater of war, skinpacks, voice packs and if they MUST make an expansion faction, make it as a 4th faction which can fight anyone else.

They'd sold well over 4 million copies while I was there and presumably more since then. Relic games also have long tails, meaning they continue to bring in revenue well after other games no longer do. The studio makes a significant amount of money from its back catalogue. Just because you don't feel like CoH2 was a success doesn't change that it had a strong launch for sales and continued well after that.

Well I stand corrected then. I couldn't find any updated numbers anyway from those written on wikipedia.

Steam has close to two million copies sold alone

Well I stand corrected then.

Well, he is ex-relic employee, he knows a thing or two.

Well, he is ex-relic employee, he knows a thing or two.

I was wrong. Apologies. This is what happens when you don't look at sales numbers for awhile (two years). The 4 million figure was for the original CoH, we shared that at the time. I'm not sure what CoH2 has sold by now, but it was not considered a flop by Relic or SEGA while I was there.

Again my apologies.

I'm hoping mainly for a better content selling plan. Not sure what I want, but I am sure that the commander selling idea had a negative effect on the game. Sure, sure, they all got balanced eventually, but around 40% of the game's life there's been uber-dlc like Advanced Emplacements running loose.

Please make coldwar not WW2 . It will be fun than WW2 .

-------
- I agree
- Let's make it about H-Bomb MIRVs
- Everyone starts with all tech. You can built WW3 units, like Walker Mecha, and Hovertanks,
and Stealth fighters, and space battleships. You start with all units already available, and
super abilities ready - Such as mass launch of H-Bomb MIRVs completely annihilating all life
on the map (both bases) and a detailed animation of the earth cracking open with corpses
flying in all directions suffering from explosive decompression

I expect most battles to last less than 0.004 seconds.

It would make novel and exciting battling. Everyone wins/loses

Hmm COh2 was rushed out, it was not finished when it arrived. They could make COH2.5, where they have optimized the game engine, optimized the maps, optimized all of the commanders. Then if i would be relic, and wanted coh2 to be e-sports, I would make a tournament every 2 month, whit price money and casters....
I hope they will make coh3... Look at BF1, I think it will be a huge succes, because its a analogue game, you just cant lock on to something and kill it, you have to have som skill, im so tired of robots ect... so I think COD will fail bigtime this time....

This is the biggest thing that could see CoH3 getting made. Since the late 2000s there has been a decline in interest in WW2 games. Now this can be attributed to a number of things but the biggest is simply the fact that there are only so many times players can see the same assets and scenarios without getting bored, and most current consumers had their fill of that playing MoH and CoD in the late 90s/early 2000s.

However the new generation of consumers were still in nappies while those games were in their heyday and conversely are starting to get sick of the same pseduo-realistic modern day military games. So they represent something of an untapped market, especially for a WW2 game that doesn't follow the same old Normandy/Stalingrad storyline.

As you mentioned SPR and BoB were big drivers for popularity of WW2 games, and we haven't had anything like that since those were released. Part of that is because the public has less stomach for that 'America, Fuck Yeah, war is awesome!' style of war film, but nonetheless a successful WW2 film or TV series could be a major driver for revival of the genre, given the untapped market I mentioned previously.

Now, where are these big releases? Well we have that Mel Gibson movie coming soon but given Gibson's reputation and the highly questionable casting of Andrew Garfield in the lead role I don't see that doing well. Nolan's upcoming Dunkirk film looks more promising although I doubt it will gain as much traction simply because it doesn't features Americans prominently (but perhaps there will be a badass American agent/commando/pilot shoehorned in somewhere to fill that gap). I think the biggest potential lies in a HBO/netflix-style big-budget TV series. If such a venture succeeds, THEN I can see CoH3 getting made.

- -- ---
- You are right.
- COH3 should be about USA vs ISIS.
M1 Abrams battletanks crushing terrorists hiding in mud houses in the middle of the desert.
- The terrorists would fire AK style weapons vs Predator drones and H-bomb MIRVs and 50x Strong
A-10 passes with 30mm auto gatling gun + Apache. Games would take 0.0004% seconds.

You are correct. These future games should be playable as Americans exclusively driving up sales

- Think BF3 and BF4 and... BF Hardline

Hmm COh2 was rushed out, it was not finished when it arrived. They could make COH2.5, where they have optimized the game engine, optimized the maps, optimized all of the commanders. Then if i would be relic, and wanted coh2 to be e-sports, I would make a tournament every 2 month, whit price money and casters....
I hope they will make coh3... Look at BF1, I think it will be a huge succes, because its a analogue game, you just cant lock on to something and kill it, you have to have som skill, im so tired of robots ect... so I think COD will fail bigtime this time....

======
- For COH2 to be an esport, it needs a mirror style tournament mode. Tiger = IS-2
Panzer 4 = T34/85, Panzer 3L = T34/76, StuIIIG = SU85, etc. For tournament E-sport mode, only.
That way NO ONE can say ANYTHING about BALANCE
- BF1 is going to be AMAZING. So MUCH love and care has gone into it. WOW
- COD ? Robots? Did I miss something?
- Yea, COH2 suffered from the death of THQ and the acquisition by SEGA.

No bugsplats. Customizable keys.