Schwerer Flak Truck Balance ideas

This thread needs to be locked for trump levels of self awareness.

lol so you did lie, I knew I was right otherwise you would have posted replay and proved me wrong with delicious glee

Next question: Why did you lie about the results? Was it to enhance you allied fanboy persona?

Nope. I admit you are nothing more than forum troll who prefer to post over and over instead of trying something yourself.

Still, it's up to you to prove I lied.

Congratulations to both of you on lowering everyone's expectations. I'm impressed that you both kept a multi-post argument going without bothering to check the attribute editor or ask Cruzz whether the Schwerer Flak is better than the M5's AA upgrade.

Let's have a look at the stats, shall we?

Aeroplanes have 1000 armour.

Schwerer:

Shots per magazine: 6
Reload time: 3.4
Cooldown: 0.5
Chance to kill on deflection (CKD): 0.07
Penetration: 45


Shots per second = SPM/(Cooldown*(SPM - 1) + Reload) = 6/5.9 = 1.0169
Chance to destroy plane = CKD*Deflection chance = CKD(1-Pen/1000) = 0.07*0.955 = 0.06685
Expected number of shots to destroy = 1/0.06685 = ~14.96
Expected time to destroy = ESTD/SPS = 14.96/1.0169 = ~14.71 seconds

M5 Halftrack:

Bursts per magazine: 13
Average Burst time: 1.5
Rate of Fire: 20
Cooldown: 2.5
Reload time: 4
CKD: 17/9916 = ~0.00171
All penetration chances below 3%, so always deflects


Shots per second = BPM*(Burst time*ROF)/(BPM*(Burst time + Cooldown) - Cooldown + Reload) = 13(30)/(13(4)-2.5+4) = ~7.29
Expected number of shots to destroy = 1/CKD = ~583.29
Expected time to destroy = ESTD/SPS = 583.29/7.29 = ~80.02 seconds


Obviously these aren't the most rigorous calculations and it's entirely possible that the M5 is extremely lucky in one game and the Schwerer isn't. Despite this I think I've demonstrated that the Schwerer is, on average, five times better than the M5.

Nope it doesn't. still RNG based i give it that. but no it doesnt shoot down air planes ridiculously fast

Look at the post above me with the actual stats, does it seem ridiculous now, is 5 times (on average in other words when its not 6 or more times better) not ridiculous for something thats free. Honestly how can you say thats ok?

Yes it is true and just because it was replied to doesn't mean its wrong seriously how is anything I wrote wrong.

1. Regarding your statement that the HQ 'cancels doctrinal abilities': After playing around with it a bit I gotta confirm Australian Magic here: FlakHQ and especially with base flaks combined will make short work of P-47s and Hawkers if they are sent in blindly, unsupported in the vicinity of the Flak HQ.

However, if you use a powerful and expensive ability carelessly it will be wasted, same as other abilities. Offensively you can still very well use it with a collective push, make the HQ switch targets and then your opponent has the choice to commit their Armor into a risky situation with air support around, or potentially lose the HQ or whatever they are protecting with it.

Now, if the PanzerHQ is not there, any pintlemounted MG42s will reveal the tanks by shooting at the P-47, therefore get targeted in the FOW and they'll just be fair game to some extent if your opponent lost the FlakHQ.

Defensively they are still a powerful repellant against your opponents armored push which will be out of reach of their HQ most of the time.

So if you campare that to 'scavenge artillery' or whatever same price segment, can also be easily be dodged. Where is the imbalance overall?

2. Any of the non-loiter abilities, mg or at gun drops are not impacted because they are directional they can avoid the building just fine. The major recon, since you were the one who brought it up: Two planes fly over the map from opposite directions, sure they'll get shot down in the end, but not before revealing the territory. So why are you even complaining about that one in your previous posts? The HQ has zero influence on that ability.

Allied supply drop from Land Lease does go down now and then because it always starts from the enemy's base.

4. All this talk about 'for free' and Major is just a pop cap drain... I don't even feel like replying to that any more.... A Major gives you access to recon, flexible retreat point, artillery (and not a bad one to help knock out your hated PanzerHQ) , you can make it a bazooka squad or wehatever you fancy, and you can still build associated units if you loose it. Please don't just echo pop cap disadvantage again?

5. Regarding the comparison with allied AA Halftracks, that's a reason for buffing allied and possibly Wehrmacht AA, but not to nerf the PanzerHQ. Comparing Wehrmacht AA abilities to Allies would be more suitable, because they both can actually dish out. OKW has no high impact Airborne abilities (outside of maybe sector assault, which comes with an underwhelming commander that nobody wants).

Not meaning to troll ya, man. I just think it's a one-sided post. If you had an option in the poll like 'Apply a cost to the gun that increases the Building Health points as well' I'd be all ears. But it's all just nerf, nerf , nerf...

1. Regarding your statement that the HQ 'cancels doctrinal abilities': After playing around with it a bit I gotta confirm Australian Magic here: FlakHQ and especially with base flaks combined will make short work of P-47s and Hawkers if they are sent in blindly, unsupported in the vicinity of the Flak HQ.

However, if you use a powerful and expensive ability carelessly it will be wasted, same as other abilities. Offensively you can still very well use it with a collective push, make the HQ switch targets and then your opponent has the choice to commit their Armor into a risky situation with air support around, or potentially lose the HQ or whatever they are protecting with it.

Now, if the PanzerHQ is not there, any pintlemounted MG42s will reveal the tanks by shooting at the P-47, therefore get targeted in the FOW and they'll just be fair game to some extent if your opponent lost the FlakHQ.

Defensively they are still a powerful repellant against your opponents armored push which will be out of reach of their HQ most of the time.

So if you campare that to 'scavenge artillery' or whatever same price segment, can also be easily be dodged. Where is the imbalance overall?

2. Any of the non-loiter abilities, mg or at gun drops are not impacted because they are directional they can avoid the building just fine. The major recon, since you were the one who brought it up: Two planes fly over the map from opposite directions, sure they'll get shot down in the end, but not before revealing the territory. So why are you even complaining about that one in your previous posts? The HQ has zero influence on that ability.

Allied supply drop from Land Lease does go down now and then because it always starts from the enemy's base.

4. All this talk about 'for free' and Major is just a pop cap drain... I don't even feel like replying to that any more.... A Major gives you access to recon, flexible retreat point, artillery (and not a bad one to help knock out your hated PanzerHQ) , you can make it a bazooka squad or wehatever you fancy, and you can still build associated units if you loose it. Please don't just echo pop cap disadvantage again?

5. Regarding the comparison with allied AA Halftracks, that's a reason for buffing allied and possibly Wehrmacht AA, but not to nerf the PanzerHQ. Comparing Wehrmacht AA abilities to Allies would be more suitable, because they both can actually dish out. OKW has no high impact Airborne abilities (outside of maybe sector assault, which comes with an underwhelming commander that nobody wants).

Not meaning to troll ya, man. I just think it's a one-sided post. If you had an option in the poll like 'Apply a cost to the gun that increases the Building Health points as well' I'd be all ears. But it's all just nerf, nerf , nerf...

I never intended to make a one sided post, thats why I left the leave it as it is option and I left the price up for debate, maybe if the tech price was high the HQ could get more health but nobody has suggested a price yet so im not sure what it should be.

Anyways my opinion is that there should be a middle ground with the AA changes, I think the Schwerer should get a decent AA nerf and the other factions should get a decent AA buff because im tired of power creeping in this game and I wont bring up pop cap again but I will say again that one thing that annoys me about the Schwerer is that it takes zero micro to get use out of it unlike with the major which needs quite of bit of micro and munitions to reach his full potential. Its definitely a difficult thing to balance and there is probably no perfect solution but I think the AA needs to preform less because the axis dont have to worry about some inevitable AA weapon that the allies will build in every game because the Bofors is optional.

Since i'm not gonna go through the whole discussion (and i should just clean that 1v1 discussion but let's move on) and read all pages i'm gonna summarize my opinion on the subject.

Note: it shouldn't be isolated changes rather than take this as a whole.

1- AA in the game is outdated. Both how the mechanics to take down a plane and the capabilities through different factions.
M5 AA performance is sad and people joke accordingly that the IS2/ISU gunner are just plain better. For cost, Ostwind is not amazing compared to Centaur and the Flak HT remains a "badly bugged" unit (AA is good/fine for both USF/OKW HT).
For options: see Mirage approach on the subject.

2- Flak bunker in base are not required right now, specially when OKW now get's access to snare. Simil reason, i don't see why USF get's extra MG bunkers on it's circular base.
Remove extra bunkers and replace flak bunkers with MG bunkers. This "decent" flak bunkers could replace the ones which are on the commander slot for OKW.

3- Finally we arrive to the Schwerer. I do think the AA gun should require an upgrade BUT i think it should be done with this other changes.
3.1: Medics no longer requires an upgrade. Building T1 comes with the medics.
3.2: Deploying T3 (Schwerer) cost from 1/2 to 2/3 of it's current cost. It comes without the gun and ONLY have access to Obers + JPIV
3.3: Unlocking the AA gun cost 1/2 to 1/3 PLUS the current medic cost. This unlocks the AA gun and gain access to PIV + PV.
3.4: KT requires that the T3 must have been upgraded once.

The AA gun capabilities should be a toggleable option with a long cooldown. Either you want it to focus on AA or against ground threats (Simil to ISU behavior).

The point of the changes is to keep the current total tech cost, while slightly buffing the midgame from OKW (healing, Obers timing and somehow early access to AT tank). Replacing T3 shouldn't be as hard nor the only option after losing it been a call in tank or KT.

Since i'm not gonna go through the whole discussion (and i should just clean that 1v1 discussion but let's move on) and read all pages i'm gonna summarize my opinion on the subject.

Note: it shouldn't be isolated changes rather than take this as a whole.

1- AA in the game is outdated. Both how the mechanics to take down a plane and the capabilities through different factions.
M5 AA performance is sad and people joke accordingly that the IS2/ISU gunner are just plain better. For cost, Ostwind is not amazing compared to Centaur and the Flak HT remains a "badly bugged" unit (AA is good/fine for both USF/OKW HT).
For options: see Mirage approach on the subject.

2- Flak bunker in base are not required right now, specially when OKW now get's access to snare. Simil reason, i don't see why USF get's extra MG bunkers on it's circular base.
Remove extra bunkers and replace flak bunkers with MG bunkers. This "decent" flak bunkers could replace the ones which are on the commander slot for OKW.

3- Finally we arrive to the Schwerer. I do think the AA gun should require an upgrade BUT i think it should be done with this other changes.
3.1: Medics no longer requires an upgrade. Building T1 comes with the medics.
3.2: Deploying T3 (Schwerer) cost from 1/2 to 2/3 of it's current cost. It comes without the gun and ONLY have access to Obers + JPIV
3.3: Unlocking the AA gun cost 1/2 to 1/3 PLUS the current medic cost. This unlocks the AA gun and gain access to PIV + PV.
3.4: KT requires that the T3 must have been upgraded once.

The AA gun capabilities should be a toggleable option with a long cooldown. Either you want it to focus on AA or against ground threats (Simil to ISU behavior).

The point of the changes is to keep the current total tech cost, while slightly buffing the midgame from OKW (healing, Obers timing and somehow early access to AT tank). Replacing T3 shouldn't be as hard nor the only option after losing it been a call in tank or KT.

Great ideas man, I think this would really help balance the Schwerer gun and the OKW because being able to bring out Obers earlier on would make them much more formidable because their greatest weakness is that they have to fight hard for vet to reach their full effectiveness against squads that are already vetted, if this was implemented I would definitely start making Obers again. Also I like how you managed to make a side tech without having to increase the actual cost of the OKW medium tanks and of course you made a system where the Schwerer gun would actually require micro to be effective and there would be decision making. In addition I like the change that would take away the cheesy staling for a KT and the elimination of the medic upgrade but I have two questions

1:Would the medics still heal at a rate of 8 or would they go down to 5 again? (im pretty sure those are the numbers but if I got them wrong im sorry)
2:If the Schwerer was destroyed and rebuilt would the side tech for medium armor have to be repurchased or would only the gun have to be repurchased or would the gun also automatically rebuilt?

Since i'm not gonna go through the whole discussion (and i should just clean that 1v1 discussion but let's move on) and read all pages i'm gonna summarize my opinion on the subject.

Note: it shouldn't be isolated changes rather than take this as a whole.

1- AA in the game is outdated. Both how the mechanics to take down a plane and the capabilities through different factions.
M5 AA performance is sad and people joke accordingly that the IS2/ISU gunner are just plain better. For cost, Ostwind is not amazing compared to Centaur and the Flak HT remains a "badly bugged" unit (AA is good/fine for both USF/OKW HT).
For options: see Mirage approach on the subject.

2- Flak bunker in base are not required right now, specially when OKW now get's access to snare. Simil reason, i don't see why USF get's extra MG bunkers on it's circular base.
Remove extra bunkers and replace flak bunkers with MG bunkers. This "decent" flak bunkers could replace the ones which are on the commander slot for OKW.

3- Finally we arrive to the Schwerer. I do think the AA gun should require an upgrade BUT i think it should be done with this other changes.
3.1: Medics no longer requires an upgrade. Building T1 comes with the medics.
3.2: Deploying T3 (Schwerer) cost from 1/2 to 2/3 of it's current cost. It comes without the gun and ONLY have access to Obers + JPIV
3.3: Unlocking the AA gun cost 1/2 to 1/3 PLUS the current medic cost. This unlocks the AA gun and gain access to PIV + PV.
3.4: KT requires that the T3 must have been upgraded once.

The AA gun capabilities should be a toggleable option with a long cooldown. Either you want it to focus on AA or against ground threats (Simil to ISU behavior).

The point of the changes is to keep the current total tech cost, while slightly buffing the midgame from OKW (healing, Obers timing and somehow early access to AT tank). Replacing T3 shouldn't be as hard nor the only option after losing it been a call in tank or KT.

Sounds reasonable to me, like a lot of the changes that miragefla proposed.

Please do not nerf the OKW anymore. It would be like taking away the crutches of an old man that already has a hard time standing.

Please do not nerf the OKW anymore. It would be like taking away the crutches of an old man that already has a hard time standing.

I don't think the most recent proposal here constitutes an overall nerf. Depending on specifics in implementation this addresses both sides.

I agree with these changes, currently OKW meta revolves around Luchs or GTFO. Doing anything else and it's an uphill battle.

Please do not nerf the OKW anymore. It would be like taking away the crutches of an old man that already has a hard time standing.

it's not a nerf, it's a fix.

There is no reason why OKW should have free AA "unit".

If it costs something as well as requiring teching up first to actually get, it's not free. It's as free as a tank that comes with pintle MG already.

It is also even more important to keep if base flaks are removed. There are only four OKW units that have any AA capability; Panzer4 Panther and KT through pintle MGs (that is, upgrade), and flaktrack- that's three tanks and a halftrack. All of T3 have no AA capability, and 2cm emplacements are doctrinal. OKW T4 is also the closest an OKW player has to a defensive emplacement, it's no wonder it does what it does. And it is not like AA will stop a plane if your men are distracting it.

Reduce AA range and it's pretty much solved. I'm all for it since it will prioritize shooting ground stuff than a an airstrike that's pretty much unavoidable.

As a side note I really wished any AA guns in this game can be toggled to AA/ ground mode. At least there's the micromanagement element to it, plus the benefit of player control. You can then rush a T4 if it's busy firing at a plane and the player forgets to re-toggle back to ground. They used to do that with the USF AA halftrack but instead of implementing it to other units, took it out altogether.
The thing about AA guns is that its entirely autonomous to player decision- the obvious reason is there are no planes to manually target, and since the game is almost entirely ground-based micromanagement, it's no wonder this is hardly a manageable feature in the game. Toggling AA mode however mitigates this problem- sometimes you want that position to shoot aircraft and damn all the tanks and infantry coming at it; the best counter to emplacements are artillery or off-map strikes anyways, none that T4 can do to stop. Continually strike at it and the OKW player will have to tend to it since it's both a producing unit and a defensive structure; this means risking expensive Sturmpionier that can be used in AT or repairing vehicles; Mechanized HQ doesn't repair structures.

As for smoke I haven't had much luck trying to demonstrate it; I do know though that the Heavy Cav company's off-map smoke strike will blind it, but I swear the Rifleman Off-map WP artillery doesn't do shit to it.

If it costs something as well as requiring teching up first to actually get, it's not free. It's as free as a tank that comes with pintle MG already.

It is also even more important to keep if base flaks are removed. There are only four OKW units that have any AA capability; Panzer4 Panther and KT through pintle MGs (that is, upgrade), and flaktrack- that's three tanks and a halftrack. All of T3 have no AA capability, and 2cm emplacements are doctrinal. OKW T4 is also the closest an OKW player has to a defensive emplacement, it's no wonder it does what it does. And it is not like AA will stop a plane if your men are distracting it.

Reduce AA range and it's pretty much solved. I'm all for it since it will prioritize shooting ground stuff than a an airstrike that's pretty much unavoidable.

As a side note I really wished any AA guns in this game can be toggled to AA/ ground mode. At least there's the micromanagement element to it, plus the benefit of player control. You can then rush a T4 if it's busy firing at a plane and the player forgets to re-toggle back to ground.

This 'free' accusation triggers people because it disregards any context altogether. If you read elchino7s last post maybe we could reach an agreement here. Not that I don't see your point in relation to all that's been written here.

As a side note I really wished any AA guns in this game can be toggled to AA/ ground mode. At least there's the micromanagement element to it, plus the benefit of player control. You can then rush a T4 if it's busy firing at a plane and the player forgets to re-toggle back to ground.

They can. The USF aa halftrack used to be like that. It would be pretty simple to seperate it's ground fire from aa, or even make the AA a specific upgrade.

You just have it switch weapon profiles the same way the shermans or mg ap rounds work.

If it costs something as well as requiring teching up first to actually get, it's not free. It's as free as a tank that comes with pintle MG already.

It is also even more important to keep if base flaks are removed. There are only four OKW units that have any AA capability; Panzer4 Panther and KT through pintle MGs (that is, upgrade), and flaktrack- that's three tanks and a halftrack. All of T3 have no AA capability, and 2cm emplacements are doctrinal. OKW T4 is also the closest an OKW player has to a defensive emplacement, it's no wonder it does what it does. And it is not like AA will stop a plane if your men are distracting it.

Reduce AA range and it's pretty much solved. I'm all for it since it will prioritize shooting ground stuff than a an airstrike that's pretty much unavoidable.

As a side note I really wished any AA guns in this game can be toggled to AA/ ground mode. At least there's the micromanagement element to it, plus the benefit of player control. You can then rush a T4 if it's busy firing at a plane and the player forgets to re-toggle back to ground.

Still better than Allied AA, Soviet got M5 which is pure crap, the only other choice is IS-2 pintle,
USF got AA through AAHT which is squishy as wt tissues, Utility car which is ok and Sherman Pintle's MG. If USF goes Captain => Major you can forget about AA too.
UK got Bofor which locks out AEC and not really feasible for 1v1 and Centaur which is quite expensive and leaves UK wide open to tank rush.
So yeah Axis got very good AA compared to Allied. Every match they always either got 222 or Flak HQ which shut down planes real good.
I would prefer if all faction got non-fuel AA choice, about flak HQ even if you park it at your base it still have enough range to swat out planes from pretty much 2/3 of the map.

Still better than Allied AA, Soviet got M5 which is pure crap, the only other choice is IS-2 pintle,
USF got AA through AAHT which is squishy as wt tissues, Utility car which is ok and Sherman Pintle's MG. If USF goes Captain => Major you can forget about AA too.
UK got Bofor which locks out AEC and not really feasible for 1v1 and Centaur which is quite expensive and leaves UK wide open to tank rush.
So yeah Axis got very good AA compared to Allied. Every match they always either got 222 or Flak HQ which shut down planes real good.
I would prefer if all faction got non-fuel AA choice, about flak HQ even if you park it at your base it still have enough range to swat out planes from pretty much 2/3 of the map.

If this is only about anti air and OKW, as said before, there is pretty much no Air threat available to OKW. No AA needed against that faction. So then we're talking about mixed team games only, where only one Axis faction will have access to air support. And 'shut down planes' is arguable as well.

'it still have enough range to swat out planes from pretty much 2/3 of the map', no that is not true, surely not on team game maps. Use cheat command mod, try it out....

Problem with OKW AA is that it's either very good or very shitty, there isn't much OKW player can do about it. Unlike American halftrack the flaktrack sucks nazi gauleiter balls in comparison, they make up for base flaks and the T4 gun. The closest to a middle ground is OKW just having non-doc 2cm emplacement PLUS buffing 2cm emplacements in general, as AA is hardly good enough reason to invest in something that doesn't have vet and easily decrewed.

An even bigger problem is that the AA range is fixed, so it is most apparent in small maps, and less in larger (re team) maps. That T4 is going to be busy shooting ground targets that it will almost never go for that airstrike coming in. That OKW player isn't going to notice, in fact s/he can do jack squat about it.

I suppose the closest to a compromise is that the T4 gun starts off as a 2cm gun, and can be upgraded to 37mm. At least that way you don't have a defenseless structure but it performs poorly yet enough to ward off the odd infantry that wanders too close by, and any OKW player has an incentive to upgrade to 37mm for the increased firepower. You got the sidetech and the nerf, yet the power that OKW needs remains in play.

Not gonna spend more time on this, think one viable solution was brought, people are not interested enough to read through or discuss it. I guess just do whatever the poll decides then, huh?

If this is only about anti air and OKW, as said before, there is pretty much no Air threat available to OKW. No AA needed against that faction. So then we're talking about mixed team games only, where only one Axis faction will have access to air support. And 'shut down planes' is arguable as well.

'it still have enough range to swat out planes from pretty much 2/3 of the map', no that is not true, surely not on team game maps. Use cheat command mod, try it out....

In 1v1 usually Flak HQ is enough to cover that much unless you use airstrike somewhere close to your base. About Air SU got a lot of air recon and 2 of their commander got IL-2 strafe, also Cargo plane. USF Air support only counts for P-47 rocket and Tac Support Recon because the rest of them mysteriously got high attitude recon. The problem with OKW and USF is that Lelic just give the middle finger to eastern faction when they introduce them. USF on release just rekt OH until 222 buff, OKW shreck blob + pre-nerf Obers also rekts SU late game hard.