Let's Talk: Sd.Kfz. 222

Put a 221 in tier 1, and slap the sniper in tier 2. Upgrade to 222 after tier 2 is unlocked.

And last but not least, but yet again-222 IS overpowered when you compare its cost to what it does.

I can't help but laugh a bit. Do you even need an AT gun to counter a 222? Put a squad on cover and the 222 will just run around and make noise and do almost nothing. Only the vanilla 251 is more worthless vs infantry. So 2-3 222's can counter an unsupported T70 or an AEC, big whoop, manpower is the issue here. The T70 can run around and deny entire sides of the map or else face having your squads wiped on retreat. When was the last time anyone had to retreat a full squad from a 222? Meanwhile you've invested how much manpower in 222's vs a single T70? A T70 that can actually drain your MP while the 222's drain nothing but the will to live from your pios as you have to repair them every 60 seconds from small arms. Then a single AT gun arrives, one which you can circle if you so desire but dont plan on decrewing it anytime soon. Calling the 222 OP is just lol. When it arrives it has a viable lifespan of maybe 2 minutes before its obsoleted and you surely can't say the same for the AEC or T70 or Stuart. The only time its more than meh is for spotting scope maphax which will likely be fixed someday pending lelic.

I can't help but laugh a bit. Do you even need an AT gun to counter a 222? Put a squad on cover and the 222 will just run around and make noise and do almost nothing.

And I can't help but laugh at arguments like these.

2x222 can park in front of garrisoned maxis at point blank range and destroy it before 222 will lose half HP.
Squads without access to AT nades can be just rushed and forced to retreat with 222 not loosing even 25% of health.

Only the vanilla 251 is more worthless vs infantry.

True, however vanila 251 is not supposed to deal damage in the first place and 222 up close can not be ignored, brits, vet0 rifles and penal heavy soviets before guards arrive can't force it off.

So 2-3 222's can counter an unsupported T70 or an AEC, big whoop, manpower is the issue here.

M20 with upgrade vs 222? Still, M20 is almost purely AI, so we can skip this if we ignore zook crew.
Greyhound vs 222?
AEC is native hardcounter for lights below puma, its costs are much greater then a pair of 222s, yet it got nothing on them.

The T70 can run around and deny entire sides of the map or else face having your squads wiped on retreat.

I don't have problem with a pair of 222s routing T70.
Its the cost of these 222s that makes it questionable.

When was the last time anyone had to retreat a full squad from a 222?

Every time there was a game between T1 soviets and ost or non bofors brits vs ost.

Meanwhile you've invested how much manpower in 222's vs a single T70?

I may lean to agree that 220mp may be worth 40fuel in performance, but there is no excuse for AEC(getting just 1 is tremendous cost, especially in menpower) or 1v1 situation vs upgraded greyhound.

A T70 that can actually drain your MP while the 222's drain nothing but the will to live from your pios as you have to repair them every 60 seconds from small arms.

Please stop being so fixated on T70, there are other lights which 222 owns for the cost effortlessly.

Then a single AT gun arrives, one which you can circle if you so desire but dont plan on decrewing it anytime soon. Calling the 222 OP is just lol. When it arrives it has a viable lifespan of maybe 2 minutes before its obsoleted and you surely can't say the same for the AEC or T70 or Stuart. The only time its more than meh is for spotting scope maphax which will likely be fixed someday pending lelic.

By your logic, should we decrease costs of M3, M20 or Greuhound? Their time of relevance is comparable, yet they cost much more and are hardly excelling in their roles without heavy infantry support as well.

You are really underestimating what 222 can do.

Put a 221 in tier 1, and slap the sniper in tier 2. Upgrade to 222 after tier 2 is unlocked.

This wouldn't work, what are allies going to do against a t0 turreted vehicle? The kubel is fine because it's not that strong in combat and can be circled at close range, but that wouldn't apply to a 221.

M20 can't be lowered in cost unless you remove the stupid free zooka squad mechanic.

M3 comes before fausts so it can't be lowered.

Greyhound, I'd say it could use a looking at.

The 222 does a little damage up close at point blank but that is vs a unsupported Maxim you're referring to. AT guns also come from T2 from soviets so obviously if there's a maxim they also have the hard counter to 222's readily available before the 222's ever hit the field. I won't even talk about Guards because, well, if you have multiple 222's a Guard will probably be called in and will enjoy all the free vet.

Brits AT gun is also available pretty close to the time a 222 would hit the field and an AEC only maybe a minute or so behind that.

In any of these scenarios the window of effectiveness is still incredibly small and not worth the delay of tech or manpower for their utility. I only use them when I see an early Lt or multiple M3's but other than that they're meh and a far cry from OP.

But if we look strictly at the stats and theorycraft scenarios in a vacuum we can argue any point for as many pages of posts as possible!

Anyway, seriously the only times I've haven't just farmed vet from multiple 222 has been when I committed everything I had to rushing something like a t70. So 222 could be considered OP when i specifically cripple my ability to adapt or counterplay.

...which doesn't really seem like the same thing now does it.

Do you even play this game budwise? 222s are an all-purpose light vehicle that deal GOOD damage to infantry. Idk what kinda of ultra noobs you play against that keep it at max range vs squads in cover, but players with a brain can easily micro it for max. damage (which is significant).

And since it's MP cost is about the same as a pioneer, it's a no brainer unit to make. It harasses, controls periphierals, and forces squads without AT to blob. This then allows then Axis player to concentrate his army on a zone since now the allied player must do the same or face endless fall backs as squads 1v1 and lose to 222 (which is what the Ost player wants - to make use of MG and combined arms as solo squads are still Ost weak point; except that 222 really nullifies this weakness)

It's far too good atm.

I can't believe people think this light vech meta is acceptable - it's literally cancer to this game.

So you're saying put your 222 in rifle AT nade or AT nade range in order to deal damage? Because its only point blank that it does anything. VS Brits its a little better since they have no snare but vs Russians or USF it's not really an option.

I play this game quite a bit, mostly 2v2 though. Of the hundreds of 2v2 games I've played I dont recall ever seeing someone spam several 222's and be successful with it.

Increase .222 accuracy
Decrease health
Increase armour to that of an m20...

First off, Rifle 'nade has a min range, so a 222 can actually drive into the center of the squad to avoid it.

And even if a squad gets the snare off, the 222 still has significant health left to force the squad off. Sure, this then requires a repair unit to come along, but this can get an engine healed very quickly if you have a pioneer close by.
- the scatter on the 222 can actually be quite devastating (like so many vehicle guns) to squads in cover (particularly light cover) as the game's incredible squad formation behaviour makes them bunch up.

The 222 is FAR less useful in 2v2 + simply due to the amount of concentrated fire power and all sorts of units running around to stop light vech dives. Not to mention, getting an AT gun out is far easier in team games whereas getting 1 in 1v1 is a conscious choice to play a defensive game vs the vech due to the amount of manpower the unit requires (trade off from more offensive infantry) as well as the units needed to protect the AT gun.

And I can't help but laugh at arguments like these.

2x222 can park in front of garrisoned maxis at point blank range and destroy it before 222 will lose half HP.
Squads without access to AT nades can be just rushed and forced to retreat with 222 not loosing even 25% of health.



True, however vanila 251 is not supposed to deal damage in the first place and 222 up close can not be ignored, brits, vet0 rifles and penal heavy soviets before guards arrive can't force it off.


M20 with upgrade vs 222? Still, M20 is almost purely AI, so we can skip this if we ignore zook crew.
Greyhound vs 222?
AEC is native hardcounter for lights below puma, its costs are much greater then a pair of 222s, yet it got nothing on them.


I don't have problem with a pair of 222s routing T70.
Its the cost of these 222s that makes it questionable.


Every time there was a game between T1 soviets and ost or non bofors brits vs ost.


I may lean to agree that 220mp may be worth 40fuel in performance, but there is no excuse for AEC(getting just 1 is tremendous cost, especially in menpower) or 1v1 situation vs upgraded greyhound.



Please stop being so fixated on T70, there are other lights which 222 owns for the cost effortlessly.


By your logic, should we decrease costs of M3, M20 or Greuhound? Their time of relevance is comparable, yet they cost much more and are hardly excelling in their roles without heavy infantry support as well.

You are really underestimating what 222 can do.

USF have bazooka, and soviet have at nade. both of those are excellent against 222.

the 222 have weak armor to begin with. you can destroy them with small arms fire. If the 222 actually become a problem, the USF have bazooka and the soviet have at nade. Both of which will easily kill a 222. (british is a separate issue)

The t70, luch, and stuart are all light tanks with the ability to win a game due to their anti-infantry power. By comparison the 222 have a broken mg that make it unreliable against infantry. This turn the 222 into an anti-vehicle specialist. it is a specialized hard counter. A specialist counter should be cost efficient at their job, because it's the one thing they are good at.

222 doesn't win games the way stuff like the way t70/luch/stuarts do, unless it's against the british. the 222 merely allow the wehr to survive into panzer4.

a 444 isn't really "cheap" either. 420 mp is quite a bit of map. The t-70 cost less manpower than a 222, much less a 444.

If we use relic's fuel to manpower conversion rate (5:1). a 444 cost the equivalent of 570 mp while a t70 cost 550 mp. this mean the 444 is a equal investment into units that are geared toward anti-vehicle duty, while the t70 is a generalist tank.


is the m20 obsolete? I will agree, but the wehr needs an effective light tank or a counter. Pak and schreck just don't cut it. Unless the wehr get an entirely new unit, the 222 is the closest thing they've got to a light tank. At the least the 222 is a specialist unit. Don't break an entire faction just to fix one unit.

Its price should reflect its performance. Increase its fuel price from 15 to 25. End of story.

By the way some people are talking it sounds like the 222 is stronger than a fucking tiger. Extremely exaggerating the strength of a unit that can be easily negated by an aec, t70 or stuart let alone captain zook, guards, at nades, the list goes on...

And the 222 only has a small window of opportunity before these counters/soft counters arrive. Yes for its cost the 222 is too good but only a little. Reduce health to 300 problem solved.

Also people that say my t70 or aec can get rekt by double 222 need to L2P seriously.. If you are careful enough with your light tanks then those 222's will never have a great opportunity to all in dive since they usually require rear armour to secure a kill.

Only the aec has weak front armour but 3 shots from it can kill a 222 unlike the t70 which takes much longer. As for the stuart stun shot can secure a kill on a 222 easy.

By the way some people are talking it sounds like the 222 is stronger than a fucking tiger. Extremely exaggerating the strength of a unit that can be easily negated by an aec, t70 or stuart let alone captain zook, guards, at nades, the list goes on...

We're talking cost effectiveness.
What you get for the money you paid.
Put WC51, M3, Greyhound, M20 and 222 next to each other and you'll see one greatly standing out with what it does and for what you pay.

And the 222 only has a small window of opportunity before these counters/soft counters arrive. Yes for its cost the 222 is too good but only a little. Reduce health to 300 problem solved.

You realize that changes literally NOTHING? Not even the amount of PTRS shots it takes? And you still have too cost efficient vehicle.

Also people that say my t70 or aec can get rekt by double 222 need to L2P seriously.. If you are careful enough with your light tanks then those 222's will never have a great opportunity to all in dive since they usually require rear armour to secure a kill.

Pair of 222s doesn't struggle nor needs a long time to kill T70, front or rear, doesn't matter, it'll be dead within next 10-15 seconds.
AEC is hardcountered by dual 222 which cost considerably less then AEC.
Only Stuart can stand up to them.

Only the aec has weak front armour but 3 shots from it can kill a 222 unlike the t70 which takes much longer. As for the stuart stun shot can secure a kill on a 222 easy.

Again, 2x222 hardcounters AEC for considerably lesser cost. If you micro better then average potato, you won't even lose single 222.

We're talking cost effectiveness.
What you get for the money you paid.
Put WC51, M3, Greyhound, M20 and 222 next to each other and you'll see one greatly standing out with what it does and for what you pay.


You realize that changes literally NOTHING? Not even the amount of PTRS shots it takes? And you still have too cost efficient vehicle.


Pair of 222s doesn't struggle nor needs a long time to kill T70, front or rear, doesn't matter, it'll be dead within next 10-15 seconds.
AEC is hardcountered by dual 222 which cost considerably less then AEC.
Only Stuart can stand up to them.


Again, 2x222 hardcounters AEC for considerably lesser cost. If you micro better then average potato, you won't even lose single 222.

Wc51 and Greyground are well known to be underpowered units for their price so comparing them to the 222 isn't fair as they should be stronger for their cost. As for M3 and m20 you could argue that these could use a small price reduction (fuel for m3, manpower for m20). So this doesn't necessarily justify a price increase to the 222 if these units have their own issues.

I do agree that the 222 should be slightly nerfed but I don't think price increase is the right way, unless you subsequently wanted to buff its armour and/or dps.

Oh yeah its sooo easy to just rush in with 222s and kill a t70 or aec without sacrificing them also. Maybe for someone who doesn't play the game or plays against players who don't know how to micro this may be the case but in most cases they will support or back away the light tank so that its more dangerous for you to continue rushing in with said 222s.

As previously pointed out the 222 has crappy armour so even if you happen to be very careful with them your gonna be spending an age to constantly repair them.

444 hardcountering aec..someone doenst know the existence of the smoke and reverse Button

Someone forgot aec smoke cooldown is longer then 10 seconds.

Someone gets Engaged every 11 seconds by 444s, despite ostheer Pio needs literally ages to repair even a single 222

I think we're overlooking the (currently bugged) MG. By how much would fixing the bug improve the 222's performance against infantry?

If the 222 becomes powerful enough to be deployed solely for its anti-infantry abilities, its price must be increased. Currently, the 222 is economically efficient enough to overwhelm most Allied light vehicles and still come out reasonably ahead. Adding more anti-infantry firepower would make the 222 annoying/difficult/impossible to deal with for USF/Soviets/UKF at its current price.

Sdfkz 222

Previously the 222's Coaxial MG had no rotation with only a 10 degree firing cone with no ability to traverse making it difficult to track targets it chases after, particularly at close-range. The reload has been shortened the reload on the MG to reduce the length the MG is not firing.
Increased health, cost, armour, range, and acceleration to help the 222 kite other light vehicles.

-Coaxial MG now has 10 degree traverse to the left, right, and up.
-Coaxial MG Reload from 6/6.5 to 4/4.5.
-2cm autocannon accuracy at far from 0.025 to 0.035
-Moving accuracy of the 2cm accuracy from 0.5 to 0.75
-Health from 240 to 280.
-Autocannon range from 40 to 45.
-Cost from 210mp/15fuel to 280mp/45fuel
-Acceleration from 2.4 to 2.8
-Armour from 9/4.5 to 12/6.
-Coaxial MG now gains accuracy bonuses at veterancy 2.
-222 autocannon can now attack ground.
-Coaxial Range from 35 to 40.

These are the changes to the 222 in Miragefla's competitive mod. I'd be interested in hearing a slightly more detailed rationale from Miragefla but the modded 222 seems to fit into the light tank-shaped hole in Ostheer's unit list.

Implementing only the 222 changes without certain other changes (i.e. HEAT grenades for IS with the Mills Bomb upgrade) would not be practical of course.