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Let's Talk: Sd.Kfz. 222

1 Aug 2016, 22:23 PM
#1
avatar of miragefla
Developer Relic Badge

Posts: 1304 | Subs: 13

So I'm here with another topic, this time with the Ostheer 222 and pointing out the issues with the unit.

As usual discuss, critique and be nice to each other :)

222 Sdfksz Cost Effectiveness

Currently the 222 is 210 manpower and 15 fuel, yet two are more than capable of dueling with any light vehicle or tank outside of the M5 Stuart and will effectively trade fuel-wise as two of them are only 420/30. Yes you might lose out on manpower, but negating non-AT infantry and tiers such as Soviet T1 and USF LT tech is more than worth the price as T2 is almost always mandatory as Ostheer and 222s can be easily produced with minimal territory control.

Furthermore, counterparts to the 222 such as the Soviet M3 (190/15) and USF M20 (340/20) barely have any time to roam around before a anti-light vehicle hard counter arrives and for nearly the same price.

It should have a cost increase so losing these vehicles are more punishing and you can't immediately start countering the light cars that arrive only a minute sooner due to the 222's price. We're not talking much in terms of manpower, but mainly the fuel cost which is so dirt cheap for the unit's effectiveness.

Proposal: Cost from 210/15 to 240 manpower and anywhere from 25-35 fuel

222 as a Sniper Hunter and AI Unit

If anyone hasn't noticed is generally awful when chasing down infantry and snipers, not because the DPS sucks, in fact it's very good. The main issue is with the tracking of the 222's coaxial MG as it is offset of the main gun resulting in times where the 222 will only be able to engage the infantry with the autocannon unless you're at a good angle. Down below you can see it has a decent firing cone, but no ability to the track to the left or right, limiting its ability to engage infantry because of the offset.

fire_cone_angle: 10f;
normal: {
max_down: -90f;
max_left: 0f;
max_right: 0f;
max_up: 0f;
speed_horizontal: 120f;
speed_vertical: 60f;

Prime example of the 222's effectiveness on the move with its MG can be seen here and it still has not been fixed since the date of the video.



Since 222's will be more expensive, its MG should be a responsive weapon so the 222 can fill its role of being a light vehicle that does well vs other lights and infantry and be the primary offensive scout unit for Ostheer in the early game.

Proposal: Tracking to left, up, right to 5 from 0
1 Aug 2016, 22:35 PM
#2
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930

the biggest reason the 222 got buffed to 320 hp is to give the wehr a light vehicle counter.

https://www.coh2.org/news/52176/esl-go4coh2-statistics-part-iii-commanders

During ESL, the most popular doctrine pick for the wehr was the mobile defense doctrine, at 32%. This is for the obvious reason that the mobile defense doctrine have access to the puma, the counter to the USF stuart and t70.

Turning the 222 into a generalist vehicle at the expense of price would rob the wehr of a potent light vehicle counter, which it desperately needs.

as cost effective as the 222 is, it can't really turn the game around for the wehr unless it's against the british.
1 Aug 2016, 22:37 PM
#3
avatar of Dangerous-Cloth

Posts: 2066

You want to nerf Ostheer early game :snfPeter:

Lol
1 Aug 2016, 22:44 PM
#4
avatar of miragefla
Developer Relic Badge

Posts: 1304 | Subs: 13

the biggest reason the 222 got buffed to 320 hp is to give the wehr a light vehicle counter.

https://www.coh2.org/news/52176/esl-go4coh2-statistics-part-iii-commanders

During ESL, the most popular doctrine pick for the wehr was the mobile defense doctrine, at 32%. This is for the obvious reason that the mobile defense doctrine have access to the puma, the counter to the USF stuart and t70.

Turning the 222 into a generalist vehicle at the expense of price would rob the wehr of a potent light vehicle counter, which it desperately needs.

as cost effective as the 222 is, it can't really turn the game around for the wehr unless it's against the british.


It would still counter light vehicles, we're not touching the autocannon which still hits the armoured cars and half-tracks hard and is a major threat to the rear of the light tanks. Furthermore, the 222 is also the army's sniper hunter, yet it has trouble running down infantry/snipers due to its MG's offset.

If we want to discuss the issue's of buffing Ostheer early game and their issues, we should talk about it in another thread and discuss what can be done there. Here we're focusing on the 222.

Cost-wise, it's 1-2 more minutes of fuel, but you also cannot toss them away if you keep losing them. 222's are still decent enough to stop the light vehicle flanks on ATGs and can finish them off if they've been hit by paks unless it's a Stuart.

You want to nerf Ostheer early game?


Then boost the other aspects of Ostheer so it's less crutching on snipers, 222s, and call-ins? I can't bring up every topic on the faction for a single unit.

Let's say we did boost Ostheer's early game, would 222s then be too powerful at that point for their cost?

1 Aug 2016, 23:00 PM
#5
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 1225

Balance must always be considered in a holistic perspective. Looking at individual units is meaningless at best, actually detrimental to balance at worst.
1 Aug 2016, 23:01 PM
#6
avatar of Dangerous-Cloth

Posts: 2066



Then boost the other aspects of Ostheer so it's less crutching on snipers, 222s, and call-ins? I can't bring up every topic on the faction for a single unit.

Let's say we did boost Ostheer's early game, would 222s then be too powerful at that point for their cost?



If we boost Ostheer's early game and make the Panzer IV's performance match its cost, then a 222 price nerf will be fine. Otherwise it will be the death of Ostheer.
1 Aug 2016, 23:03 PM
#7
avatar of Hans G. Schultz

Posts: 875 | Subs: 2

You want to nerf Ostheer early game :snfPeter:

Lol
1 Aug 2016, 23:03 PM
#8
avatar of VindicareX
Patrion 14

Posts: 312

222 used to cost more and be a lot worse in. Now it has received almost 2x HP while maintaining its significant dps with the now free auto cannon.

They should've buffed it stats to what they are now and keep the old cost, or reduce the cost like they did. Both is a bit much; and while it's not as ridiculous as T70 or Stuart it still effectively shuts down Lt. USF or Sov T1 with the speed you can get it out. While this could also be fine, the cost the Ost player makes by getting a a cheap 222 (basically buying a pioneer for 15 fuel - fuckin no brainer here), is way less than the benefits he receives by shutting down a lot of early game play.

This puts the Ost player way ahead of the Sov/USF player if they choose to go T1. As such, we have this dumb meta with only Stuart and T70.

It should cost more fuel to make the Ost player pay for early game power through delayed teching.
1 Aug 2016, 23:09 PM
#9
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17

The MG traversal bug should be fixed ASAP. Then, if the 222 becomes too deadly, we can nerf the damage. There's no excuse for retaining inconsistency-preserving bugs; inconsistency is frustrating for both the victor and the victim.

The insane price-efficiency of the 222 is something that is completely ridiculous. At some point it will have to change. CoH2 is a game about trades. Usually when you want to counter something expensive, you have to pay some premium to have a good chance. 222 is a tool that allows Ostheer to completely chicken out on that part of the game.

However, I wouldn't touch a thing about the 222, yet, until somebody would present me a credible alternative for Ostheer early game that will help them survive the light-vehicle meta. Even though OST is supposed to be the defensive faction, it wouldn't hurt them having access to some early aggressive tools (which they have to pay for).

However, even before that, I would give priority to wiping the call-in meta off the map, first.


Then boost the other aspects of Ostheer so it's less crutching on snipers, 222s, and call-ins? I can't bring up every topic on the faction for a single unit.

Let's say we did boost Ostheer's early game, would 222s then be too powerful at that point for their cost?


I think it would help if you could elaborate a bit on your vision about Ostheer.

(The other thing that's completely ridiculous about 222 is the multiplicative stacking of spotting scopes & Vet2. This completely deletes the fog-of-war mechanic)
1 Aug 2016, 23:16 PM
#10
avatar of VindicareX
Patrion 14

Posts: 312

Personally id like to see an overhaul of every light vech from all-purpose mini tanks to a more harassment/recon role (similar to M3). This action would have the benefit of changing this retarded meta.
1 Aug 2016, 23:19 PM
#11
avatar of United

Posts: 253

Sometimes I rage spam 22's when I get pissed. Sometimes it works.
1 Aug 2016, 23:26 PM
#12
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930



It would still counter light vehicles, we're not touching the autocannon which still hits the armoured cars and half-tracks hard and is a major threat to the rear of the light tanks. Furthermore, the 222 is also the army's sniper hunter, yet it has trouble running down infantry/snipers due to its MG's offset.

If we want to discuss the issue's of buffing Ostheer early game and their issues, we should talk about it in another thread and discuss what can be done there. Here we're focusing on the 222.



the 222 is currently a critical early game unit. How is it possible to meaningfully discuss changing the 222 without talking about the wehr early game?

and the 222 is good anti-vehicle unit because of its extreme cost effective. your propose change would just make it a kind of okay generalist vehicle.
1 Aug 2016, 23:29 PM
#13
avatar of miragefla
Developer Relic Badge

Posts: 1304 | Subs: 13


However, I wouldn't touch a thing about the 222, yet, until somebody would present me a credible alternative for Ostheer early game that will help them survive the light-vehicle meta. Even though OST is supposed to be the defensive faction, it wouldn't hurt them having access to some early aggressive tools (which they have to pay for).



I'd rather see adjustments to the other factions, aside from making the 251 a more credible threat/support vehicle that doesn't die to rifle fire which should serve as the core of the Ostheer army for both keeping it on the field and supporting it.

I'm still testing that one as we've discussed, but making it available earlier after BP 1 so Ostheer is capable of putting on early aggression and maybe giving it more support tools stock. If too powerful due to timing, keep it in the T2 building. Still better than the light vehicle meta where it's one vehicle pushing back an entire faction whereas this, it requires the entire Ostheer army to support, but in turn it provides them with some good benefits.

On Light Vehicles of Allied Factions

British: Add additional time for construction of the Platoon Command and researching the AEC. Both come online so fast it's not even funny. Most factions take 40-60 seconds to get to the next tier, Brits can do it at a third of the time. Platoon Command can already come online within the first 2-3 minutes of the game, at least delay it. Probably should also lower the AOE on the AEC's gun to be like a TD. Its MG does the work killing infantry while the gun goes after vehicles, but no spontaneous deaths of squads.

Soviets: T-70, allow it to only splash 1-2 models max just like mines so it's not a massive monster versus units who enter yellow cover, but can still pick away at infantry thanks to its ROF and low scatter. It'll still be deadly to lone squad, but not the monster versus units in cover or just due to squad placement.

USF: Stuart to also only splash 1-2 models max to prevent random wipes in yellow cover or coming around corners also reinforces its role as being more geared to fighting vehicles with some AI. Maybe tweak shell-shock vs other lights so it's not outright death. Fix USF superglue being ridiculous due to it having barely any cost or delay. Possibly raise the cost and research of Captain tech back to 70 for a greater difference between LT and CPT and give USF lower tech cost for back-teching if a Major tech is activated so they're not screwed out of MGs or ATGs.

Also as Mr. Smith said, there probably needs to be a fix for 222's spotting scopes along with the other issues as it's one of the most powerful maphacks in game barring the spotlights on the IR HT and Valentine(but it sucks). Oncethe issues are fixed, obviously we can't have dirt cheap 222s.
2 Aug 2016, 00:50 AM
#14
avatar of Intelligence209

Posts: 1124

you want to nerf the OH only early game threat?

any cost increase to a .222 is gonna make the unit worthless. keep in mind that OH is the only faction that is forced to go tier 1. tier 2. and rush for an AT unit as due to every other allied faction having a tank that isn't vulnerable to infantry gun fire...

.222 has some of the worst pathing in the game btw. if a cost increase happens then increase the Armour to that of a m20.
2 Aug 2016, 02:19 AM
#15
avatar of Crumbum

Posts: 213

I think you are overreacting about this issue. The machine gun should definitely be adjusted but increasing the price of a fragile unit(armour wise) that comes somewhat late due to ost's teching isn't smart.

In a world of t70s, aecs, stuarts, captain zook, guards etc. Which all comes around the same time a 222 or 2x222 can come out, the 222 can be negated quite quickly.

The price of the 222 is quite low but instead of increasing its cost I would reduce the health to something more reasonable like 300hp (down from 320). If you increase its cost then we would have the same problem of pre patch where 222 would not even be worth the cost.
2 Aug 2016, 02:24 AM
#16
avatar of VindicareX
Patrion 14

Posts: 312

you want to nerf the OH only early game threat?

any cost increase to a .222 is gonna make the unit worthless. keep in mind that OH is the only faction that is forced to go tier 1. tier 2. and rush for an AT unit as due to every other allied faction having a tank that isn't vulnerable to infantry gun fire...

.222 has some of the worst pathing in the game btw. if a cost increase happens then increase the Armour to that of a m20.


I think the solution, as I said, is to change the access Allies have to early light vehicles (as well as P2).

Probably won't happen though since Relic has made this light vech design so entrenched at this point.
2 Aug 2016, 03:01 AM
#17
avatar of tightrope
Senior Caster Badge
Patrion 39

Posts: 1194 | Subs: 29

It is a shame that 2 x 222 is almost mandatory. That 30 fuel counters 60+

I agree that no tech call ins are messing up timings across the board. Getting a light vehicle followed up by a call-in is just so damn effective at the moment. Maybe once that is fixed there can be a proper look at teching to get mediums which is a rare sight these days.

The m20 and m3a1 have almost no window of opportunity vs the 222. The m20 costs way more manpower, needs a munitions upgrade for skirts and then takes way more experience to vet up.
2 Aug 2016, 03:02 AM
#18
avatar of Taksin02

Posts: 148

bring back the 2cm upgrade for 45 or 50 MU
2 Aug 2016, 03:51 AM
#19
avatar of Tobis
Senior Strategist Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2307 | Subs: 4

These seem like obvious changes to me. The 222 is crazy effective against vehicles for the price. Even in the late game it is worth buying them as suicide units and diving at the enemy to try to kill units like the Katyusha, because they are just that damn cost-efficient. Losing them is only painful if you lose their veterancy. Even as an Ost player I would gladly take this change, because the improvement to AI by the fixed machine gun bug is worth more than an around ~10 fuel increase.

The change doesn't even nerf the performance; it buffs it. If you were beating Allied light with the 444 before, you will still do it. It's too cost effective, therefore, fix-it. This isn't rocket science.
2 Aug 2016, 03:52 AM
#20
avatar of Intelligence209

Posts: 1124

I don't agree with OP at all. Not to mention the T70/stewart is able to knock out grens 25-75% no problem. Allied light tanks are still shock unit. There shouldn't be "well allied light tanks should roam uncountered for X amount of time..."
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