Just some thoughts on Ostheer units currently.

Ostheer is simply underwhelming to play right now. They start slow, T1 is pretty mediocre, and it's very tough to counter brits and USF. Much like Soviets, they feel outdated in many ways, and having to build your base up takes precious time that you need to secure vital parts of the map early.

Grenadiers need some kind of small buff in either received accuracy or lethality. I don't think it's necessary to increase the squad size, but they need some kind of offensive or defensive buff to make them a little better able to counter riflemen and Infantry sections, increase their price slightly to ~250-260 and buff them.

Move Grenadiers to T0, MG42 to T1 again. I think grens belong in T0 more than the HMG42. It's very difficult for Ostheer already because, like Soviets, you have to build your base before you do anything else in the game. This leads to a very large head start for USF and Brit players, who often seize key buildings on cutoffs and fuel before you even get there with a pio squad. The gren squad will allow you to leave your base with pioneers immediately and seize key locations on the map for grenadiers to hold until you get T1 and an MG42 out.

MG42 - feels like its in a good place, though you're basically forced into making one no matter what you do, it's essential in any build. Would be much better if the USF mortar was adjusted so they don't get wiped so easily.

Sd.kfz 251/7 - I am forced to rely on Spearhead and Festung Support so often because of brit emplacements, solely for the MHT. Not much to say about this, it feels alright, I don't know what I would change about it other than making it a little more accurate.

The Sd.kfz 252 - really great right now, I rely on it so much that it's become almost an essential unit as Ostheer, especially with the flame package to smoke allied units out of buildings. Without it it would be nearly impossible to win on building-heavy maps since the GWr 34 does jack shit to the buildings themselves. Also useful for countering partisan spam. I do feel like it could have a little better protection against small arms fire, but it's not completely necessary.

Sd.kfz 222 - It's alright, I like the buffs it got a few months ago, but it is still very under-whelming vs. infantry, and it can't really square off against other light vehicles aside from the M3 and the M20. I'd like to see its lethality vs. infantry increased with a slight fuel increase to ~20.

Panzer Grenadiers - they are alright I guess, but they still feel kinda squishy compared to other close-range units. I use them pretty often, usually just a single squad with shreks though.

Assault Grenadiers, they need a buff badly. They seriously under-perform for their price. I think the MP40 in general needs to be a little more lethal, for both pioneers and assault grenadiers. Considering they could be a very useful tool for early game ostheer allowing them to compete with USF and brits much better, I don't think it's much to ask. Pioneers could get a price increase as well to ~220-240 depending on how much the MP40 is buffed.

Ostwind. Not much needs to be said here, it is fucking awful. It can't kill infantry, it can't take on light vehicles solo. It's a good AA unit obviously, but it needs to be something that can push off infantry like the Centaur can. I'd like to see it in a position where it can actually force the enemy back instead of just sitting there, firing away and doing nothing at all. That said, if you do manage to vet it up to vet 3, it becomes quite good, the problem is getting it vetted up in the first place is nearly impossible.

Panzer IV - It's not performing that bad honestly, but a slight price or fuel reduction should happen to bring it in line with the allied mediums like the Cromwell, the Sherman, E8 and the new T-34/76.

Stug IV - it's in a great place right now, probably one of the only units that I'm actually satisfied with in terms of Ostheer. Good penetration, and a good counter to allied mediums.

Brummbar is performing better at least, though I still can't find any real situations in which building one makes sense. In team games maybe, but otherwise it's useless even with the buffs.

Panther is pretty mediocre right now as well. I mean there's just not really any good uses for it, there's no reason to even go T4 right now unless you are in a team game and need a Panzerwerfer to combat blobbing and mortars / stationary stuff. Speaking of the Panzerwerfer, I think it's performing alright, it's in a good place right now.

Tiger I - this thing just sucks as well. Sometimes it can be decent, but the vast majority of the time it is just a glorified, slower panzer IV. It's too slow, its armor is too weak, and it just can't dish out the amount of damage it should be dealing. I suggest buffing its frontal armor at the very least.

Any other units I didn't mention I think are in a good place.

I personally would take a significant reduction in being one-shot over any sort of other Grens buffs and thereby would consider improving their formation to be more important than anything. Otherwise, just nerf the power creep of Xpac squads instead.

Still pretty sure the Ostwind would be fine (though probably still require a cost reduction) if it just had the controls to deal with the terrible moving accuracy. Give it hold fire and reload buttons, and now it can use its mobility and hit stuff reliably while not making it a squadwipe-chaser (which I suppose is the reason why Centaur is slow as hell while being killy as hell).

I personally would nerf WFA and Brits instead. You don't fight power creep with buffs. You nerf new things so they would be in line with old basic ones.

Probably would start by nerfing terminator buffs on Rifleman. USF now have everything to play through combined arms, not just RM RM RM Cpt Stuart.

The only thing that I concerned about EFA is T-70. It is too unreliable - easily wipes squads, easily gets destroyed. Survivality buff and firepower nerf.

I personally would nerf WFA and Brits instead. You don't fight power creep with buffs. You nerf new things so they would be in line with old basic ones.

Agreed, if we implemented all these changes it would make the faction OP. OH is a bit underwhelming currently but balance in this game rests on a knife edge and changing so many things at once (particularly with core units that are frequently used) would lead to another imbalanced situation as has occured many times in the past.

+1 Buff Assault Grenadiers!

Not just because they need it, also for CoH1 Volksgrens nostalgia.

MP40s are effectively missing in action from CoH2.

Ostheer is simply underwhelming to play right now. They start slow, T1 is pretty mediocre, and it's very tough to counter brits and USF. Much like Soviets, they feel outdated in many ways, and having to build your base up takes precious time that you need to secure vital parts of the map early.

Grenadiers need some kind of small buff in either received accuracy or lethality. I don't think it's necessary to increase the squad size, but they need some kind of offensive or defensive buff to make them a little better able to counter riflemen and Infantry sections, increase their price slightly to ~250-260 and buff them.

Move Grenadiers to T0, MG42 to T1 again. I think grens belong in T0 more than the HMG42. It's very difficult for Ostheer already because, like Soviets, you have to build your base before you do anything else in the game. This leads to a very large head start for USF and Brit players, who often seize key buildings on cutoffs and fuel before you even get there with a pio squad. The gren squad will allow you to leave your base with pioneers immediately and seize key locations on the map for grenadiers to hold until you get T1 and an MG42 out.

MG42 - feels like its in a good place, though you're basically forced into making one no matter what you do, it's essential in any build. Would be much better if the USF mortar was adjusted so they don't get wiped so easily.

Sd.kfz 251/7 - I am forced to rely on Spearhead and Festung Support so often because of brit emplacements, solely for the MHT. Not much to say about this, it feels alright, I don't know what I would change about it other than making it a little more accurate.

The Sd.kfz 252 - really great right now, I rely on it so much that it's become almost an essential unit as Ostheer, especially with the flame package to smoke allied units out of buildings. Without it it would be nearly impossible to win on building-heavy maps since the GWr 34 does jack shit to the buildings themselves. Also useful for countering partisan spam. I do feel like it could have a little better protection against small arms fire, but it's not completely necessary.

Sd.kfz 222 - It's alright, I like the buffs it got a few months ago, but it is still very under-whelming vs. infantry, and it can't really square off against other light vehicles aside from the M3 and the M20. I'd like to see its lethality vs. infantry increased with a slight fuel increase to ~20.

Panzer Grenadiers - they are alright I guess, but they still feel kinda squishy compared to other close-range units. I use them pretty often, usually just a single squad with shreks though.

Assault Grenadiers, they need a buff badly. They seriously under-perform for their price. I think the MP40 in general needs to be a little more lethal, for both pioneers and assault grenadiers. Considering they could be a very useful tool for early game ostheer allowing them to compete with USF and brits much better, I don't think it's much to ask. Pioneers could get a price increase as well to ~220-240 depending on how much the MP40 is buffed.

Ostwind. Not much needs to be said here, it is fucking awful. It can't kill infantry, it can't take on light vehicles solo. It's a good AA unit obviously, but it needs to be something that can push off infantry like the Centaur can. I'd like to see it in a position where it can actually force the enemy back instead of just sitting there, firing away and doing nothing at all. That said, if you do manage to vet it up to vet 3, it becomes quite good, the problem is getting it vetted up in the first place is nearly impossible.

Panzer IV - It's not performing that bad honestly, but a slight price or fuel reduction should happen to bring it in line with the allied mediums like the Cromwell, the Sherman, E8 and the new T-34/76.

Stug IV - it's in a great place right now, probably one of the only units that I'm actually satisfied with in terms of Ostheer. Good penetration, and a good counter to allied mediums.

Brummbar is performing better at least, though I still can't find any real situations in which building one makes sense. In team games maybe, but otherwise it's useless even with the buffs.

Panther is pretty mediocre right now as well. I mean there's just not really any good uses for it, there's no reason to even go T4 right now unless you are in a team game and need a Panzerwerfer to combat blobbing and mortars / stationary stuff. Speaking of the Panzerwerfer, I think it's performing alright, it's in a good place right now.

Tiger I - this thing just sucks as well. Sometimes it can be decent, but the vast majority of the time it is just a glorified, slower panzer IV. It's too slow, its armor is too weak, and it just can't dish out the amount of damage it should be dealing. I suggest buffing its frontal armor at the very least.

Any other units I didn't mention I think are in a good place.

I don't think this is a good idea you can't implement so many changes at once.

If you want a strong infantry start as OH there is an existing commander for that opening.

I don't think it would be balanced nor logical to have an enhanced Infantry opening followed by late-axis armour (IMHO).

clerv

I find the possibility of relic nerfing new armies' power creep highly unlikely. Whereas buffing one faction would be easier to balance, nerfing ALL of the overpowered aspects of the new factions would take longer and could lead to potentially more unbalanced stuff because of all the redesigns. As opposed to rebalancing the few underpowered units of one faction, eh?

At least, realistically thinking, that's what I think relic is gona do.

I find the possibility of relic nerfing new armies' power creep highly unlikely. Whereas buffing one faction would be easier to balance, nerfing ALL of the overpowered aspects of the new factions would take longer and could lead to potentially more unbalanced stuff because of all the redesigns. As opposed to rebalancing the few underpowered units of one faction, eh?

At least, realistically thinking, that's what I think relic is gona do.

It's one thing to buff underused units so they can perform their intended role, look at the good changes to previously underused units such as Brumbarr or SU-76 as an example. That works to fill gaps in a faction's overall capability and open up new options for play. It's another thing entirely to buff commonly-used units as that has much wider-reaching implications, plus it doesn't really improve gameplay as much as you just end up relying even more on a small selection of units and strats.

Make Rifles and Tommiers able to buy 1 LMG and suddenly Grens will become best mainline infantry in game.

I don't think this is a good idea you can't implement so many changes at once.

If you want a strong infantry start as OH there is an existing commander for that opening.

I don't think it would be balanced nor logical to have an enhanced Infantry opening followed by late-axis armour (IMHO).

clerv

On an unrelated note, +1 avie

From an Aussie XD

Make Rifles and Tommiers able to buy 1 LMG and suddenly Grens will become best mainline infantry in game.

Question is, how that could be applied without giving LMGs 2 weapon slot requirement, resulting in the only squad in game being able to pick dropped LMG late game being conscripts.

You could say make it into an upgrade instead of weapon rack, I could say special weapons regiment, so that is USF exclusive solution.

Another thing, which would be a buff for grens without stat changes would be to change med kits to work on self only for ~10 muni, increasing field presence indirectly and reducing casualty rates. At late game ost can rely on armor enough.

Question is, how that could be applied without giving LMGs 2 weapon slot requirement, resulting in the only squad in game being able to pick dropped LMG late game being conscripts.

You could say make it into an upgrade instead of weapon rack, I could say special weapons regiment, so that is USF exclusive solution.

Another thing, which would be a buff for grens without stat changes would be to change med kits to work on self only for ~10 muni, increasing field presence indirectly and reducing casualty rates. At late game ost can rely on armor enough.

Well... That's the problem of Relic's shit design. First they do, later they think.

Well... That's the problem of Relic's shit design. First they do, later they think.

True.

M1919 should be para exclusive, not doctrinal weapon upgrade.

Now, brits are harder nut to crack, because relic seem to want them both, flexible AND limited.

Another thing, which would be a buff for grens without stat changes would be to change med kits to work on self only for ~10 muni, increasing field presence indirectly and reducing casualty rates. At late game ost can rely on armor enough.

I agree, what's the point of making the medkit only able to heal other squads? Removing this limitation would actually make it useful.

True.

M1919 should be para exclusive, not doctrinal weapon upgrade.

Now, brits are harder nut to crack, because relic seem to want them both, flexible AND limited.

For USF it could go this way:
Remove 1919 from doctrines (and from base) -> Put Paras in or any other ability.

For UKF... Huh.. Remove LMG rack (leave PIAT) and once researched you can pick PIATs or upgrade Bren?

Panzer IV - bring it in line with the allied mediums like the Cromwell, the Sherman, E8 and the new T-34/76.

Stug IV - Good penetration, and a good counter to allied mediums.

and the same crap again. if you wanna slaughter inf, upgrade pz4 with MG
if you need some AT ASWELL, get a stug. deadly combo. ffs.


but i agree with the assgrens, they just suck for their price. the mp40 are a joke overall.

and i dont get the complaining about the ostwind, again. if im using it, it usually misses pretty often, if its used against me, this turd usually wipes multiple models on a regular basis

Panzer 4 doesn't need to be buffed against allied tanks or infantry if the rest of the faction works as it should. The germans (are supposed to, as it's a faction built on combined arms) have better supporting AT, most specifically schreks, and they do. If panzergrens were a more attractive unit choice then the P4 issue would be solved.

The question is how to accomplish that without making panzer grens too good and/or grens irrelevant compared to them. I would suggest that the reinforce cost of panzer grens is lowered to 30 like grens and they receive a bit more (just enough so it matters, no more) -received accuracy with vet, but gren LMGs do a small amount of suppression with vet. The amount should not be enough to suppress in itself, but to help suppression weapons suppress a little faster and keep suppressed squads suppressed for a little longer. This would help with both allied blob complaints and panzer gren viability.

snip

Reinforce cost of PGs was already lowered significantly, it won't get lower then that.
Shreck PGs were never bad, it was just a bad idea to spam them, people have this habit of accusing unit of being UP if it doesn't work when you spam the shit out of it.
They already have excellent base and vet rec acc and rec acc does nothing vs tanks.
Non ability related suppression on LMGs is cancer, regardless what unit its on. Possibly only Obers are excused with it, given their cost, time they hit the field and vet required. Anything automatic shooting at suppressed squad will keep it suppressed.

Non ability related suppression on LMGs is cancer, regardless what unit its on. Possibly only Obers are excused with it, given their cost, time they hit the field and vet required. Anything automatic shooting at suppressed squad will keep it suppressed.

That's what I thought too but I could swear the suppression wears off in coh2 unless I've been hallucinating about my units actually firing.

That's what I thought too but I could swear the suppression wears off in coh2 unless I've been hallucinating about my units actually firing.

Hallucinating probably.

If you suppress a squad, change target and move in pios, the squad will be suppressed until its death or retreat.

Its easier to recover from suppression when you're in cover and when shot by low RoF weapons(bolt action rifles).