Make Ostheer lategame great again!

I am not sure in terms of stats but from my own experience Panther can take on a Comet and vice versa, PzIV can take on a Cromwell and vice versa. Firefly is a gimmick tank. I don't use them unless forced. Can't really say a lot but they are very fragile and fire slow. Something with high RoF like JgdPz IV or StuG III should be able to fight it pretty reliable. Provided you can dodge Tulip.

Yes, the Panzer IV can take on the Cromwell, but the outcome is dubious at best. That should simply not be the case for a tank that is noticeably cheaper than the Panzer IV, is more mobile, has better accuracy on the move (actually allowing you to perform flanking manoeuvres without permanently shooting into the ground), and then also has the better gun (which also deals deflection damage, similar to the PIAT).

That wouldn't even be the biggest problem, if British teching wasn't so cheap and fast in comparison, that a Cromwell will certainly come out earlier if both players have a roughly similar fuel income up until that point. Something here doesn't make any sense, and it is certainly not the Panzer IV being too good.

The Comet/Panther match-up isn't quite as drastic. Yes, the Panther has slightly better acceleration (but lower max speed), costs a tiny bit less, has more frontal (but lower rear) armour, more penetration. But in come those small details. The Cromwell reloads a whole second faster, has deflection damage (which means it can deal out damage despite bouncing due to its lower penetration), and again the lower movement penalty - which is why the high speed of the Panther often comes to nothing, because shoot and scoot doesn't work.

Combine that again with the teching cost and time (the time here being somewhat more close, due to the additional research going into the Comet-sidetech with the Brits). So the Panther/Comet battle if much more close than the other one, but still there are some weird discrepancies for a faction that for the entire game is forced into a defensive role, having the battle dictated by the enemy all the time - what was meant as the selling point of the Ostheer originally has now become its greatest curse with the way mobile units are pumped up by the game's mechanics.

And in comes the StuG. Right now it works as somewhat of a stopgap between the Panzer IV and the Panther. But the decision is still between the StuG and the Panzer IV, and that doesn't work - because both were originally meant to complement each other, which is still visible in how they play. But as it stands now, you don't have the resources for that. Which results in you having to decide between either, instead of getting both (in the short run). And that doesn't work well for the StuG, because it of course can't compete on its own against turreted tanks, because it lacks the range of the SU-85 and the Jackson (I know, it costs less. This is just an analysis, not a balance suggestion.).

----------------------------------

So what could be done to lessen these impacts? Well, the most obvious way would be an overhaul of the entire teching system. That way we wouldn't have to rebalance the Sherman, the T-34 and a whole lot of other things to a reworked Panzer IV. First of all, remove that stupid research/building combo. No other faction has to pull back fighting forces from the front AND invest time into research. It is always either or, not and. The other idea to bring up Ostheer infantry up en par would be an overhaul of the reinforcement mechanics. No, not forward retreat point, as some resemblance of asymmetrical balance should be kept. But as of right now, the necessary manpower to sustain a slightly unfavourable position are significantly higher, despite your troops not being as effective. This is mostly a gripe against Tommies and Riflemen, as both are retardedly cheap to reinforce with a decent performance per model. Grens lack that, and it shows. These cost/performance differences need to be looked at, and overhauled accordingly.

Elefant is one of the best tank destroyers out there and a I-Win button (for every skilled player) on maps like Minsk or Rails and Metal. If there´s anything needed its a nerf to it's range/damage and possibly adjustments to other stats to compensate. Same goes for Jagdtiger.

The only problem is getting one before you are too weak to win.

Flames, PZschreks, Pak, PZ4, (I also heard about MG42 incendanary rounds)
Countering emplacements by indirect fire is a BS if they cant move

bofors,mortar pit combo will make it very hard to employ those.Indirect fire should be natural counter to static defenses.

Flak HQ, doube ISG combo will make it very hard to employ those.Indirect fire should be natural counter to static defenses.

the USF and UKF mortar make the wehr late game appear weaker than it is.

nerf the USF and UKF mortar first. Once the USF mortar got vet3 it's completely broken as it's got one of the best veterancy bonus in the game.

Cromwell...(which also deals deflection damage...)

Deflection damage 1.00
Deflection damage multiplier 0.00

There's really few tanks with deflection damage atm.

Nobody needs a Nascar that dives into enemy lines to expose its weak rear armor and that is instantly dead when getting snared. Snaring a Panther is incredibly easy as it is designed to go into your territory.

except the panther's speed also allow it to get out of trouble quickly as well. It's faster than most allied tank and can easily keep its strong frontal armor facing toward the enemy.

Personally the panther should get a range nerf in-exchange for faster reload. You want the panther to be in front, not sniping from the back. Even the comet's 50 range is questionable.

Yes, the Panzer IV can take on the Cromwell, but the outcome is dubious at best. That should simply not be the case for a tank that is noticeably cheaper than the Panzer IV, is more mobile, has better accuracy on the move (actually allowing you to perform flanking manoeuvres without permanently shooting into the ground), and then also has the better gun (which also deals deflection damage, similar to the PIAT).

That wouldn't even be the biggest problem, if British teching wasn't so cheap and fast in comparison, that a Cromwell will certainly come out earlier if both players have a roughly similar fuel income up until that point. Something here doesn't make any sense, and it is certainly not the Panzer IV being too good.

The Comet/Panther match-up isn't quite as drastic. Yes, the Panther has slightly better acceleration (but lower max speed), costs a tiny bit less, has more frontal (but lower rear) armour, more penetration. But in come those small details. The Cromwell reloads a whole second faster, has deflection damage (which means it can deal out damage despite bouncing due to its lower penetration), and again the lower movement penalty - which is why the high speed of the Panther often comes to nothing, because shoot and scoot doesn't work.

the cromwell is easy to kill since the size nerf. Most people only bother buying one before spamming comet. The last patch should have nerfed its offensive power instead of survivability.

the firefly is still an overpriced unit even if it's a good unit. The tulip is nasty but expensive and still dodgeable. The firefly need a price buff in exchange for a tulip nerf.

Comet is good, but it's only one piece of the british late game puzzle. I would be more concerned about nerfing the double bren and mortar emplacement first.

and neither the cromwell nor the comet deal deflection damage.

Deflection damage 1.00
Deflection damage multiplier 0.00

There's really few tanks with deflection damage atm.

Wasn't declection damage removed on all tanks? Tiger etc? Especially the stun from deflection was removed.

... a buff to Wehr infantry survivability in the form of a 5th memeber to the Grenadier squad at the very least if not for a 5th member to the Panzergrenadiers...

I'm actually concerned about a 5 man panzergrenadier squad, you know, with their panzerschrecks and all. I mean I'm all for a 5 man grens and pios, but 5 man pzgren blobs might be a problem.

As a person who recently tried out Wehr again after a long time, uhm, yeah, I'd say that a buff to late game wouldn't be bad, as well as the Tiger.

Other than that, a buff to Wehr infantry survivability in the form of a 5th memeber to the Grenadier squad at the very least if not for a 5th member to the Panzergrenadiers and Pioneer squad as well would also be welcome as atm until Grens get their MG42 they're righting both superior numbers and superior firepower, couple that with their high ammo consumption and you have a pretty weak unit and Army as a whole.

I'm actually concerned about a 5 man panzergrenadier squad, you know, with their panzerschrecks and all. I mean I'm all for a 5 man grens and pios, but 5 man pzgren blobs might be a problem.

stop trying give grenadier a fifth man

first of all this is getting dangerously close to homogenizing the different factions. four men squad is part of the wehr's identity

allies are overpowered atm, but the solution isn't to buff the wehr. This is how powercreep happens.

and frankly, a USF dual m1919a6 vet3 blob is still going to roll over a five men grenadier.

OST scales up as the game goes on. To adress specific points: panther is really good anti-armor tank with high mobility. werfer has good spread and fires all rockets at once. command tank aura still OP so you don't really need other call ins.

As it stands, command tank buffing ost t1-t2 is good enough. Even without the aura, pac40s are the best AT guns with a stun shot, MG42 has the widest arch, grens with mg42 upgrade does good damage at max range, which most mid-late game fighting becomes.

Early game grens need a buff while their mg upgrade needs nerf imo

So the Panther/Comet battle if much more close than the other one, but still there are some weird discrepancies for a faction that for the entire game is forced into a defensive role, having the battle dictated by the enemy all the time - what was meant as the selling point of the Ostheer originally has now become its greatest curse with the way mobile units are pumped up by the game's mechanics.

This is actually the smartest statement in this thread (I´m not implying the other stuff isn´t reasonable aswell).

Ostheer has to react the whole game. It initially was designed to react early- and midgame but dictate the lategame. And thus it evened out. Nowadays they can´t even do the latter. Nowadays you are hard pressed to keep the blob at bay with multiple support weapons, somehow not get annihilated by a mortar, only to somehow get a Panzer IV which is also matched by its Allied counterpats and then somehow make it to the lategame where your units are outclassed again.

The Ostwind is the only non-doctrinal Ostheer unit that clearly deserves a buff imo. The Panther needs to be looked at it, but I'm wary of just buffing it as I can see it potentially overperforming against heavy tanks with its gun's excellent penetration values.

And I sort of lol at people making arguments like the PaK40 being the best AT gun or the Panzer IV being the most powerful stock medium. These points aren't wrong, but the actual difference in performance between, say, a Panzer IV and a Cromwell is not of much strategic importance. I'd argue that both units have approximately the same impact on a match.

stop trying give grenadier a fifth man

first of all this is getting dangerously close to homogenizing the different factions. four men squad is part of the wehr's identity

allies are overpowered atm, but the solution isn't to buff the wehr. This is how powercreep happens.

and frankly, a USF dual m1919a6 vet3 blob is still going to roll over a five men grenadier.

Quite frankly Firesparks you need to stop bashing everyone else's opinion and think yours is the correct one, and stop with the asymmetrical balance excuse bullshif if you haven't figured it out until now it does not work.

The Wehr are suffering a lot more early game tha the OKW right now due to the shitty survivability of their mainline infantry if not again for their othet 2 infantry units, those being the pioneers and PGs. And late game due to their underperforming armor compared to all other Armies.

So the most logical step is to buff them, if you don't agree with that then suggest something else but don't bash our opinions just because you think yours is superior or something, if half the forum is suggesting a certain buff then it's up for debate and testing, not being bashed by some new comer modder that thinks he has some people here's experience and knowledge of how the game works.

Further more the USF mortar is bugged, that's why it's overperforming , other wise it needs to be nerfes to the M2 60mm Mortar's level but it price severely decreased as well. While nobody likes the British mortar and certainly many more people are up for replacing it rather than nerfing it to the ground like you did in your mod. Again, assymetrical balance just does not work as intended, the British need a proper indirect fire unit that's in line with the rest of them in game that is also mobile and doesn't cost fuel like the land matress, also isn't doctrinal, forgot to mention that.

Just want to add that I also believe four-man squads are part of the Ostheer's identity and that increasing the squad size to five risks homogenization.

stop trying give grenadier a fifth man

first of all this is getting dangerously close to homogenizing the different factions. four men squad is part of the wehr's identity

allies are overpowered atm, but the solution isn't to buff the wehr. This is how powercreep happens.

and frankly, a USF dual m1919a6 vet3 blob is still going to roll over a five men grenadier.

+1

I think only certain units in the allied factions need looking at and its just the squad spacing that causes 4 man grenadier squads to get wiped so easily.

I do agree with tiger getting slightly better Armour

No point getting panther? yeah right man...

Tiger needs frontal armour buff? nope its fine and balanced.

PWerfer sucks? Are you joking?

You sir are a joke, things that need to change are the USF mortar scatter and spacing of gren squads so they dont get oneshot by bs rng shots, and other minimal tweaking of the new allied synergy.
Ost is still one of the greatest and most rewarding factions to play, if you can micro them and react to your enemies kappa.

Btw flame ht is greater than ever

Wall of text.

I don't know. I find OS and UKF play style very similar, at least at the beginning.

No point getting panther? yeah right man...

Tiger needs frontal armour buff? nope its fine and balanced.

Well, he isn´t the only one seeing that the Panther serves no purpose. Tell me one situation where I should get a Panther over 2 or 3 StuGs? They will melt down even the IS-2 faster than the Panther ever could. The only advantage the Panther has I could think of is the turret and the ability to chase a Jackson. But that is only possible when your opponent is making huge mistakes and can be done by the Panzer IV as well (higher dps).

The Tiger can´t tank effectively. It get´s penetrated from the rear when flanked (as it should) but it also gets regularily penetrated from the front. Either way you have to drive out the Tiger after some seconds. It is simply frustrating not to be able to move it into a favourable position.

I´m also reasonably high ranked with Ostheer before the l2p arguments start. A reason for that is me avoiding the Panther and using the Tiger only as AI with Pak walls (works but is bullshit).

Well, he isn´t the only one seeing that the Panther serves no purpose. Tell me one situation where I should get a Panther over 2 or 3 StuGs? They will melt down even the IS-2 faster than the Panther ever could. The only advantage the Panther has I could think of is the turret and the ability to chase a Jackson. But that is only possible when your opponent is making huge mistakes and can be done by the Panzer IV as well (higher dps).

The Tiger can´t tank effectively. It get´s penetrated from the rear when flanked (as it should) but it also gets regularily penetrated from the front. Either way you have to drive out the Tiger after some seconds. It is simply frustrating not to be able to move it into a favourable position.

I´m also reasonably high ranked with Ostheer before the l2p arguments start. A reason for that is me avoiding the Panther and using the Tiger only as AI with Pak walls (works but is bullshit).

"The Tiger can´t tank effectively. It get´s penetrated from the rear when flanked (as it should) but it also gets regularily penetrated from the front." Like any other expensive Heavy tank in the entire freaking game, what do you want, some unrealistic and unproportional heavy tank advantage?

If theres any heavy tank that should get a hp buff or anything like that then its the M26, thats the definition of a heavy tank that cant "tank".

Eitherway the moral of the story is that i do not think that any heavy tank should be able to just sit infront of masses of at guns and tank destroyers and just shrug off all the shots.