Any reason for it?

Auster come on man, you're embarrassing yourself.

What I said was "about equal", not "equal". Huge difference isn't?
1v1 in a vacuum Vet 0 PzIV will loose to T-34/85 but only just. With vet however situation changes dramatically.
When PzIV reaches Vet 2, T-34/85 will die every time. Having this in mind you can easily say that PzIV is a better investment.

The situation changes with every unit when vet is included!? A vet 2 T-85 takes can down a vet 0 tiger with ease? Simply circle straf hell it can even do it at Vet 0!? Vet 2 SC beats a 76 in the right situation, we can go on and on, does that make these units equal?????

Comparing two units for cost, and then making one vetted and the other not is just plain moronic

You are pulling at straws, stop digging holes and drop the shovel...........

The t34/85 > P4. I don't know how this is an arguement.

I know right! This guy is delusional!

I know right! This guy is delusional!

The only person delusional is you.

Like I said at Vet 0 PzIV bearly losses to T-34/85. On any other veterancy level PzIV will win. When PzIV hit Vet 2 T-34 can do sheep.
I guess your tanks never last so long for you to witness this.


Also, to address someone elses claim. T-34/76 costs only 80 fuel because it's a shit tank that can only somehow fight infantry. You need two for every PzIV which will net you, oh wait 160 fuel.

The only person delusional is you.

Like I said at Vet 0 PzIV bearly losses to T-34/85. On any other veterancy level PzIV will win. When PzIV hit Vet 2 T-34 can do sheep.
I guess your tanks never last so long for you to witness this.


Also, to address someone elses claim. T-34/76 costs only 80 fuel because it's a shit tank that can only somehow fight infantry. You need two for every PzIV which will net you, oh wait 160 fuel.

You are just magnificent! P4 beating T85 at any level is just fantasy unless you are a total DERP, maybe if you actually played the game you would know this, your player card says it all! Im done with your idiotic stubbornness. ...........

Get off acid dude.

P4 got advantage against every single stock med, because chances for allied meds to penetrate it is LOWER then the chance it gets to pen allied meds.

At vet2 it stomps over allied meds and is equal to 34/85.

I have to agree with this. The important thing is, it is as good, and later better than a Sherman, but without switching rounds. It has 3 MGs in total. That in combo with its HE damage, is absulely deadly against infantry. Usually 2 zooka squads have trouble dealing with it on its own. Not even mentiong the PIATs that you can just move around and they wont hit sh*t. And that vet 2, man oh man is it powerful?

...
The important thing is, it is as good, and later better than a Sherman, but without switching rounds. It has 3 MGs in total...

Can we stop using this silly argument about Sherman's switching rounds? The Sherman's AP gun AI properties are better than that of PZ4 and guess what, is also has 3 hmgs in total.

The option to switch from AP to HE is bonus of the Sherman not a drawback which allows a very good AI gun to become even better...

Sherman is also far superior when firing on the move and it also cheaper...

all of you forget accuracy in the equation all allied tank get 0.75 on the move
AXIS TANK GET 0.5
and tank fight while they move unless you wanna get flanked
the Cromwell simply crush the ideology being literally the best and cheaper tank

As strictly allies?

T34/85 vs oh P4 on anti inf (30 samples total):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4koTutTHuHE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wr7h0txMUPw

Let's compare the t34/76 to the p4

Pen: 100 to 110
Armour: 150 to 180
Scatter: 6.9 to 6.4
Reload time: 6.23 to 5.63
Speed: 6.5 to 6.2

Where is the cost difference justified?

The youtube test is a good idea. However the execution is flawed:
- Why is the P4 engaging shocks troops whereas the T-34 is engaging Pfussies? You know that Shocks are extremely resilient to small-arms fire. Right?
- You need to keep Hull MGs faced towards infantry; for some tanks, they deal a significant amount of damage
- When you use attack-move, the tank will engage at max range (40), which is well out of range of their MGs. You can see that in your test, the T-34s happened to be in range with their MGs, while the P4s weren't.
- Not all Hull MGs have the same DPS profile.

To get a better idea about a profile, you can compare commando SMGs to PGren assault rifles. At point-blank range, commandos deal more DPS. However, their DPS drops off steeply after range 10, whereas PGrens still deal pretty good damage up until range ~25.

T-34 MGs seem to have been overbuffed. That's it.

Since T-34/76 and T-34/85 share the same MG, both tanks have received the buff. This puts their MG DPS on an equal level to a fully-upgraded OKW Panther (The OKW Panther has higher MG DPS than the MGs of OST P4. Go figure).

If we disregard the MG shenanigans. The comparison between P4 and T-34/76 is a bit flawed. The cost difference is justified because:

1) The P4 is better than the T-34 in every single aspect (bar MG damage).

Some stuff you've missed:
- You have mixed up the scatter values for T-34 and P4
- P4 has better AoE (with better reload, that becomes even stronger)
- P4 has 6.3 speed. With Blitzkrieg that becomes 8.5
- Same with acceleration (P4 acceleration almost equal to T-34, but with Blitzkrieg, forget about it)

When you take the time to cite stats, please also put the effort to doublecheck what you post.

- Not everybody on this site has the ability to doublecheck what you are posting is correct.
- It's not a nice thing to spread misinformation.

2) You are neglecting Veterancy stats. Again.

Since P4 is more durable than the T-34, it will have an easier time attaining/retaining that vet level.

3) The T-34 comes later than what its combat abilities would imply. In order to have any hope of being relevant on the battlefield, it has to be efficient.

Micro tax is the most important resource in this game.
Second to that comes Manpower (especially in the late-game)
Then, comes fuel (or munition for certain doctrines/factions)

Have you ever tried playing Soviets, and tried to counter Panther spam with T-34 spam? Try it 1-2 times, and you will see what I mean.

4) The T-34 is an end-game unit for the Soviets. There is no OST T4 option for the Soviets; you are stuck with T-34s and SU-85 until the game ends.

Would you ever build an OST P4 60 minutes into the game?
- Hell no; you would build Brummbars/Panthers/Stugs, depending on what you face
- The Soviet still has to build T-34s because there's nothing else on their T4 (and SU85 can't hurt infantry)

all of you forget accuracy in the equation all allied tank get 0.75 on the move
AXIS TANK GET 0.5
and tank fight while they move unless you wanna get flanked
the Cromwell simply crush the ideology being literally the best and cheaper tank

Note that there is also a secondary component to moving accuracy, and that's moving scatter:
- Most tanks have 2.0 moving scatter (including OST, Soviet, UKF)
- Most USF tanks have 1.5 scatter
- OKW Panther has 1.7 scatter
- Easy8 has no scatter penalty.

Since you mentioned moving accuracy. Notable exceptions to the rule you mentioned:
- All Soviet tanks
- AEC
- OKW Panther (0.65)

Accuracy penalty is still a penalty; not a bonus. You can circumvent it by:
- Moving close (where your shots won't miss anyway)
- Tapping stop before firing, and continuing (that's good practice regardless of faction). If you time this correctly, your tank will continue moving while you fire.

The P4 has better odds of beating the Cromwell if both are stationary. If the Cromwell is moving while the P4 is stationary, the Cromwell will lose hard.

The only person delusional is you.

Like I said at Vet 0 PzIV bearly losses to T-34/85. On any other veterancy level PzIV will win. When PzIV hit Vet 2 T-34 can do sheep.
I guess your tanks never last so long for you to witness this.


Also, to address someone elses claim. T-34/76 costs only 80 fuel because it's a shit tank that can only somehow fight infantry. You need two for every PzIV which will net you, oh wait 160 fuel.

The t34/85 beats the P4 consistently heads up. I have been testing this.

The youtube test is a good idea. However the execution is flawed:
- Why is the P4 engaging shocks troops whereas the T-34 is engaging Pfussies? You know that Shocks are extremely resilient to small-arms fire. Right?
- You need to keep Hull MGs faced towards infantry; for some tanks, they deal a significant amount of damage
- When you use attack-move, the tank will engage at max range (40), which is well out of range of their MGs. You can see that in your test, the T-34s happened to be in range with their MGs, while the P4s weren't.
- Not all Hull MGs have the same DPS profile.

To get a better idea about a profile, you can compare commando SMGs to PGren assault rifles. At point-blank range, commandos deal more DPS. However, their DPS drops off steeply after range 10, whereas PGrens still deal pretty good damage up until range ~25.

T-34 MGs seem to have been overbuffed. That's it.

Since T-34/76 and T-34/85 share the same MG, both tanks have received the buff. This puts their MG DPS on an equal level to a fully-upgraded OKW Panther (The OKW Panther has higher MG DPS than the MGs of OST P4. Go figure).

If we disregard the MG shenanigans. The comparison between P4 and T-34/76 is a bit flawed. The cost difference is justified because:

1) The P4 is better than the T-34 in every single aspect (bar MG damage).

Some stuff you've missed:
- You have mixed up the scatter values for T-34 and P4
- P4 has better AoE (with better reload, that becomes even stronger)
- P4 has 6.3 speed. With Blitzkrieg that becomes 8.5
- Same with acceleration (P4 acceleration almost equal to T-34, but with Blitzkrieg, forget about it)

When you take the time to cite stats, please also put the effort to doublecheck what you post.

- Not everybody on this site has the ability to doublecheck what you are posting is correct.
- It's not a nice thing to spread misinformation.

2) You are neglecting Veterancy stats. Again.

Since P4 is more durable than the T-34, it will have an easier time attaining/retaining that vet level.

3) The T-34 comes later than what its combat abilities would imply. In order to have any hope of being relevant on the battlefield, it has to be efficient.

Micro tax is the most important resource in this game.
Second to that comes Manpower (especially in the late-game)
Then, comes fuel (or munition for certain doctrines/factions)

Have you ever tried playing Soviets, and tried to counter Panther spam with T-34 spam? Try it 1-2 times, and you will see what I mean.

4) The T-34 is an end-game unit for the Soviets. There is no OST T4 option for the Soviets; you are stuck with T-34s and SU-85 until the game ends.

Would you ever build an OST P4 60 minutes into the game?
- Hell no; you would build Brummbars/Panthers/Stugs, depending on what you face
- The Soviet still has to build T-34s because there's nothing else on their T4 (and SU85 can't hurt infantry)

The difference in units it to show the relitivity of the units. You can't heads up dps if one is killing 4 man squads and the other is killing 6 man squads. I believe every 10 samples was a different unit.

I did notice the mg thing but the point of the test are to engage at max range. Where I'm pulling my stats from says they both have max range of 40, so that could be where the stat errors are coming from. I need to learn to pull my own stats. Where do you pull stats from?

I don't understand why vet stats matter so much, the armour bonus only changes it's chance to penetrate by 11% but the reload rate of the t34 becomes 4.631.

I don't believe that the P4 is better in every single aspect, there is a major difference in cost for a minor performance difference, as where the t34/85 costs roughly the same but outperformes the P4 in literally everything.

Using blitzkreig for the arguement is a bit weak. It's not like I can mash that button all the time and it cost munitions. Like, having the ability to go faster than something else shouldn't be considered in the cost of the unit if going faster requires a cost.

I'm really liking the youtube testing, personally I'm lookinng at the game in a whole new light. But it surprising how close axis armour is to their counter parts with such a huge cost difference.

I absolutely agree with your points 3) and 4), except for the panther spam part.

You are just magnificent! P4 beating T85 at any level is just fantasy unless you are a total DERP, maybe if you actually played the game you would know this, your player card says it all! Im done with your idiotic stubbornness. ...........

Well, thank you for your kind word. I wouldn't call myself magnificent but if you insist.

As per my axis play. I know that I focus on Brits recently but I've played enough games as every faction to have an understanding of how they work and what to expect.

-T-34/76 struggles with most medium armor
-Cromwell effective against ALL medium armor
-PZ IV struggles with ALL medium armor

Let me guess OP, you got flanked by a cheaper tank and now you are here whining about how every allied faction is OP, and how relic should nerf them!

No other tank gets free armor with veterancy. PZ IV will win a frontal fight with ANY of those allied tanks. You got flanked? Then L2P.

Also PZ IV has very good AI, it is not decent. On par with sherman but has much better AT.

L2P OP.

T34/85 is better than Pz4 but Pz4 has higher chances to win agasint T34/85 than T34/76 has against PzIV.

Talking about OST vet 0 Pz4 becasue once vet 2 or OKW...

T34/85 is better than Pz4 but Pz4 has higher chances to win agasint T34/85 than T34/76 has against PzIV.

Talking about OST vet 0 Pz4 becasue once vet 2 or OKW...

Vet 2 vs vet 2 the p4 loses

Vet 2 vs vet 2 the p4 loses

Don't quote me with your BS unless you are ready to finally swallow pride casue Im waiting for my 100bucks after mortar thread where you ran away

The P4 has better odds of beating the Cromwell if both are stationary. If the Cromwell is moving while the P4 is stationary, the Cromwell will lose hard.

moving means flanking with cromwell speed you can easy kill p4 whic is why p4 should cost 110 fuel

Don't quote me with your BS unless you are ready to finally swallow pride casue Im waiting for my 100bucks after mortar thread where you ran away

Lol. You owe me $100, i found your post inferring that the us mortar wasn't an issue

-T-34/76 struggles with most medium armor
-Cromwell effective against ALL medium armor
-PZ IV struggles with ALL medium armor

Let me guess OP, you got flanked by a cheaper tank and now you are here whining about how every allied faction is OP, and how relic should nerf them!

No other tank gets free armor with veterancy. PZ IV will win a frontal fight with ANY of those allied tanks. You got flanked? Then L2P.

Also PZ IV has very good AI, it is not decent. On par with sherman but has much better AT.

L2P OP.

That's not true. Pick the tanks and vet and I'll post a video with at least 30 samples once I'm done camping.