Growing the Community

Hello everybody.

Obviously, I want the CoH community (by which I mean *all* the titles in the series) to grow. From casual / grassroots to the hardcore e-sports crowd. And I know that these sorts of posts have been made before, but in my opinion it is good to resuscitate the topic as it is so important.

I will declare my interest - I am a veteran CoH player who will only ever be mediocre in competitive play. I like all aspects of CoH from campaigns through to team comp-stomps through to 1 v 1. I love the Theatre of War concept. I am not representative of the community here, for example, but I'm subscribed to all the big shoutcasters here and watch their work. I watch the tournaments and streams when I have time. People like 'you' (to be blunt) need players like 'me' to grow the fanbase. It's a beneficial and symbiotic relationship that needs to flourish.

So, thoughts if you will on:

1. Casual versus Competitive: This isn't a false / binary distinction. I think like any endeavour, it is from the casual / grassroots base that the elite players evolve. Big casual base = better of chance of (a) elite players and (b) viewer / spectator base. For example, I like rugby. I used to play at a low level and really enjoy it. I still follow the game and watch professional rugby. Is my interest respected by the professional base? Hell yes. This needs to be replicated in the e-sports field.

2. Snobbery: the community needs to rise above the sneering attitude to casual players. When responsible pro sportsmen see kids playing a kickabout game, or some amateurs enjoying a game of basketball in a carpark, do they sneer? No they don't, they often feel enthused that people dig their sport. We need to see this. Rather than LOL CoMPStomPEr Hurr Hurr we need to see that turned into an opportunity to tempt players into competition *at their level* to see if they can progress, find their level, enjoy and keep the community alive.

3. Content: CoH needs DLC and flashy features to keep going. We need to realise and embrace that. My own opinion is that eventually CoH2 will need a proper competitive mode, an elite setting that levels the playing field for proper tourney play. This is the standard that all causal players should aspire to... but if they enjoy gonzo 3 v 3 and 4 v 4 with DLC units (I know I do, I loved CoHO) then why not? As I said, this isn't a binary distinction.

4. Community: I wonder if there is room for a caster who specialises in casual play - for example a youtube channel that revels in showing casual 3 v 3 / 4 v 4 type games. Krebs used to fill this gap to a certain extent (you know, the guy people troll and scoff at but who has about 30000 regular viewers). Anything that reflects the celebrates the stuff people find fun can only be a good thing.

5. Relic: We're spoilt by the great CM relationship we have here with folks like Noun. Can they please take note of the casual player base which will flourish with custom lobbies. This and ladders *are* the issue. Balance schmalance. The finer details of unit 'A's DPS versus unit 'B's is of less significance *at this point in time* than being able to create a custom 4 v 4 with high resources, in a lobby, so people can play those crazy Montargis / Hochwald type games.

6. Thanks for reading, tl;dr we are one community. Love and peace!

Best regards

BFW

What I am really missing is a competitive ladder like vCoH had. Also the whole multiplayer needs some serious tweaking because of all the random drops/connection issues that still exist. Even vCoH was better in this aspect which is absurd.

All other stuff is a secondary priority for me But of course they are also important to make the community grow.

agreed

COH2 needs a ladder so badly its palpable. That is the major, super necessary step 1, step 2 is observer mode so casters can have proper live shoutcasting to grow twitch exposure and make viewing the game more epic, as it should have been at launch.

Good post BeltFed

to 1.) i've always said that they are not mutually exclusive, i think most "snob high level pr0-gaymerzz" would agree.

to 2.) the snobbery mostly comes out when "n00b r0flc0mpst0mp" casuals complain about balance and cry for fixes when they obviously have no clue about it in the first place. a simple "balance is fine" usually doesn't satisfy them, since they usually are not looking at their play as the source of the "wrongness", but point to it being unbalanced since they do not know how to "play right": imagine this coh1 scenario "OMGZ000Rz, MG42 so OP! suppress everything, i can't get close to it without tanks, and by the time i have tanks, he has 20 panthers and kills my base! durr!" --> not knowing how to flank might make MGs look OP, but rather than learning how to execute a flank, they will demand nerfs and not take no for an answer.

to 3.) i don't think anybody complains about skins etc. as DLC, it's when the DLCs are perceived as "pay to win" when they become problematic, even if they were never intended to affect balance in any way.

to 4.) krebs filled that role adequately. if casters REALLY wanted to appeal to a wider audience, they probably would include 3v3s and 4v4s. problem with those kind of games are: a) these game types are usually not very well balanced b) they are usually populated by lesser skilled players c) they usually end up being ridiculous spam fests. all these factors contribute to the replays/casts not really being educational, but "entertaining" at the most. what viewers perceive as being "entertaining" is largely based on their taste. i for one do not enjoy watching "entertaining" casts, but i really like watching educational ones, where good strats/good mechanics/micro etc. are highlighted and explained. krebs being antagonzied does have to do with his attitude towards other streamers afaik, i for one never hated on krebs (though i did not like his casts, but that, again, is up to taste).

to 5.) balance is not that important without a "fully developed" meta game. maps are obviously not going to be great 3 weeks after release (nor plentiful)

1. Casual versus Competitive: COH2 lacks a Day9 - a champion of the people, a man trying to elevate the basic players and make them better. That is my take on it. And, fundamentally, COH2 IS a casual game.

2. Snobbery: I find that snobbery goes far further than "lol compstomp" - The Gamereplays community was fundamentally toxic, angry, and bitter. I couldn't stand it there. At least on the official forums that atmosphere is different because they are all fans, they all love the game. GR was the height of snobbery. I don't see how new players could meet there. I feel like Snobbery is already on the way out with a new community like COH2.org being run by wise, experienced and decent folks, and supported by many others.

3. Content: I have no point on this, other than the fact is that Relic is excellent for making multiple, quality and enjoyable expansion packs. They incorperate feedback and make big changes, and it is ultimately for the best. Games like DOW2: Retribution show they listen.

4. Community: I sort of covered this in 2, but others have said it well enough - 3v3's and 4v4's make for terrible commentary. There's so much going on its difficult for a caster to focus on it. It isn't like football, where the camera follows the ball - its much more dynamic and busy than that. Its why 1v1 is the defacto standard of RTS - otherwise the level of complexity is too high. The way around this is to follow (again) Day9 - focus on that one guy in that 3v3 or 4v4, and see what he was doing for his team, what he could improve, etc.

5. Relic: IpKaiFung covered it best. If a game like SSBM can get that sort of following with nothing given up by Nintendo, we need to do a damn sight better towards Relic. This immediate "Rage @ Relic" thing needs to stop. They do a solid job. The community doesn't grow because of Relic - it grows because of people like Krebs and HelpingHans, and folks like AmiPolizeiFunk whom pour themselves into fansites and videos and try to get as many people involved as possible. Too much is laid at Relic's feet - we need to own up and make the community grow, and folks like Noun will be there when shit hits the fan to pick up the pieces

6. Glad to comment on your stuff. Their great talking points

There are three things that this game needs to grow;

Spectator Mode

Ladders

Chat Lobbies

Spectator Mode is an invaluable tool, for some reason abandoned by CoH2. Firstly, it's great for tournaments. It allows for games to be casted live and some of my fondest memories of DoWII are watching the best players duke it out on a live stream, or being watched if I ever played.

It's also an amazing learning tool. I improved my game so much and helped others improve through use of the Spectator Tool in custom games. CoH2 doesn't have a kind learning curve to people new to Relic games, and that will dissuade whatever casual playerbase we have from continuing to play.

Making friends through global chat lobbies and having people spectate your games for you to help you learn not only makes you feel obligated to keep playing and improving, but it also hastens the process in a more enjoyable manner.

Ladders are also very important for the new player experience, you'd be surprised to know. But only if it's done in a StarCraft 2-esque manner.

We need Leagues. Bronze, Silver, Gold. We don't need past that because our playerbase isn't all that large. Leagues are extremely encouraging when trying to keep people playing. It's that feeling that you are in competition with all of these people, that you are progressing and that you are improving. This motivates you to play more. When you lose, you want to play again until you win, so you can keep your position and can progress your rank or stop yourself dropping a League.

The Ladder system isn't done yet, and if we were getting this kind of deal I'd personally wait longer for it. Ladder in of itself is extremely important for all players, because everybody doesn't want to waste time on something if they don't feel like they're getting better over time. But Leagues take that to a whole new level. They integrate competition with just playing the game, and that's an invaluable thing to have when you're trying to foster a large community that lasts.

From all of these things, we get our commentators, our casters, our Day9-esque players. Give us these things and the community will do the rest and make use of the tools we're given. Nobody wants to play a game with a dead or bad community, and people will work to make it larger and better of their own accord. All they need is the tools.

to 4.) krebs filled that role adequately. if casters REALLY wanted to appeal to a wider audience, they probably would include 3v3s and 4v4s. problem with those kind of games are: a) these game types are usually not very well balanced b) they are usually populated by lesser skilled players c) they usually end up being ridiculous spam fests. all these factors contribute to the replays/casts not really being educational, but "entertaining" at the most. what viewers perceive as being "entertaining" is largely based on their taste. i for one do not enjoy watching "entertaining" casts, but i really like watching educational ones, where good strats/good mechanics/micro etc. are highlighted and explained. krebs being antagonzied does have to do with his attitude towards other streamers afaik, i for one never hated on krebs (though i did not like his casts, but that, again, is up to taste).

This is a super good idea and one I've toyed with myself. I've just started casting, and my first replay was one showing how a noob managed to turn the table on a pro by hanging in there and coming up with the right counter to his strat. He'd have lost to normal play no doubt, but still, it's the kind of game that can encourage lower skill players.

I would love to try casting a 3v3 or 4v4. I am a fan of this game type, I think it is looked down on too much, they're just a lot of fun, and can be quite competitive. I remember watching a 3v3 of good players on Hill 351 back in the day that totally, totally inspired me to improve my play. You'd definitely need dual casters just to keep an eye on stuff and point out important things, so I'd try it if I could find another caster willing to do it with me.

But right now, I won't, because 3v3 and 4v4 are just totally broken due to Opel/strafe. Even with the fixes I don't think it'll get better, because I find Soviets need 5x the team coordination and the maps don't play to the strengths of Soviets at all (flanking and outcapping) because of the lower number of resource points.

Maybe it would be worth it to do a 3v3 or 4v4 cast just to get Relic's ass in gear on the most pressing issues, but it probably wouldn't be much fun to cast. If someone can find a 3v3/4v4 where Soviets win vs. a similarly skilled German team, let me know...Unfortunately in these game types its hard to even assess skill, but then again, no one has ever really tried.

We need Leagues. Bronze, Silver, Gold.

This.

Sluzbenik, you make great points. At the moment the 3 v 3 4 v 4 scene is totally German orientated but this is why we need more maps.

I've said in other posts, good Russian teams in big games are awe-inspiring in a way Ostheer ones are not. I learnt stacks about how to skilfully use a sniper / clown car in a 3 v 3 on Rhzev the other day, the guy had superb micro and I was totally outplayed.

There *is* good stuff in bigger games.

COH2 needs a ladder so badly its palpable. That is the major, super necessary step 1, step 2 is observer mode so casters can have proper live shoutcasting to grow twitch exposure and make viewing the game more epic, as it should have been at launch.

Good post BeltFed

I agree, both of these features are necessary from a mechanical standpoint.

However, StarCraft 2's community is very welcoming and friendly, and honestly puts the communities of many other games to shame. I agree that the communities of more RTS games, this one included, need to be less exclusionary of newbies.

just a idea: maybe its time to make some 3v3 and 4v4 tournaments, leagues or ladders for the "casual" players...

3v3 and 4v4 tourneys u wont probably see ,cuz 1v1 depends on sole players and his skill is all he can bid on, there should be option for custom games like in vcoh for "casual" players without them having to play ranked ...

just a idea: maybe its time to make some 3v3 and 4v4 tournaments, leagues or ladders for the "casual" players...

? ranking for casual players, ... if they implement leagues i guess that would satisfy it , or just keep playing regular ranked and try to get up as high as u can

i think, that a annihilation option and basic matches would make the community much stronger. back in vcoh days, most noobs would either play compstomp or scheldt annihilation. now they are playing campaign, and if they try multiplayer, they are probably TOTALLY STOMPED by one of the good, old vcoh players, so they dont like it and go back to campaign. so ladders are not the point. not for casual gamers. i mean, i was proud becoming level x as americans or brits, because it showed, that i had evolved. but many people will stop after one lost game, because they dont like to lose!
coh 1 had a steep learning curve, coh 2 has it aswell, which means, you have to have noobfriendly multiplayermatches, which is basic match annihilation.

Must admit, the constant pissing and moaning is getting me down.

Well, I just played a very nice 3v3 that came down to us with 48 points as Axis. No Opel trucks or strafe...

This was a tight, competitive game and I'd really like to cast it...I shall be woefully ruthless with my own performance, believe me. If interested in co-casting, please check it out and let's figure something out. Or maybe other casting team could do it, and show the lower level players how it can and will be done with Soviet in 3v3 (once Opel is fixed anyway).

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  t0rch Koxstantin You're sick

  48 points to the wire 3v3

  by: sluzbenik map: Rzhev Winter

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[replay]5458[/replay]]

^^fixed for you

Agreed we need leagues like SC2. Region specific would be god.

1. I think the loss of the lobby from COH1 and the custom games really hurt this idea. Hopefully it's something that can become real again and get back into the COH community. The lobby let the casual players have their thing and automatch was for the competitive players. When i graduated to automatch years ago it felt like an accomplishment that I wasn't getting roflstomped every game. Hell, now I win most of my games and have become a pretty competitive player.

2. Agreed. I can't even count the amount of times I've played some top tier players due to automatch and was talked down to, no GG, just general rudeness or unfriendliness. It's even worse if its a player you follow or respect. But, you cannot control these things, and they will likely always exist in multiplayer games.

Hell, I started playing custom matches shortly after coh released years ago and I'm still playing the game. Supporting the casual base of players is as or even more important than the competitive scene. You're not going to have a bunch of "pros" watching a livestream of pros playing, its the casual audience who makes up 99% of the viewers trying to learn something new or watch a cool game.

3. This kinda blends into the other ideas.

4. Well you cannot force these people to come out of the woodworks unfortunately :/ we'll just have to wait and see who comes along.