AT tools are available arouns the 5min mark while vehicles comes in earliest @7mins. Do you all build AT in prep for LIght armours and risk mothballing it till the 12 min mark where mediuma come in?
Or let it reign for like 2 mins with you building AT in reaction to the light armour?
AT: reactionary or be prepared
14 Jun 2016, 01:11 AM
#1
Posts: 70
14 Jun 2016, 01:15 AM
#2
Posts: 1930
get a generalist light vehicle like the stuart or aec, out first. this way your unit isn't stuck waiting around.
get an atg if he's going hardcore vehicle spam.
for the ost, the 222 is cheap enough that I always get it. it can also deal surprising amount of damage against infantry. There's also a trick with the 222's mg42 you can use: keep enemy on the left side of the turret where the mg42 is offset.
get an atg if he's going hardcore vehicle spam.
for the ost, the 222 is cheap enough that I always get it. it can also deal surprising amount of damage against infantry. There's also a trick with the 222's mg42 you can use: keep enemy on the left side of the turret where the mg42 is offset.
14 Jun 2016, 01:56 AM
#3
Posts: 247
Usually you can tell based on time and what units have been built roughly when you will need AT. If the opponent has invested heavily in early-mid game infantry or static play then it may be better to counter that or go for a generalist vehicle. If you haven't seen anything other than low-tier units by 6 mins or so, it's time to start getting some AT prepared.
It also depends on the level of threat, e.g. the 222 isn't that menacing whereas a t70 or luchs has the potential to decide the game in the time it takes to get an AT gun built and into position.
It also depends on the level of threat, e.g. the 222 isn't that menacing whereas a t70 or luchs has the potential to decide the game in the time it takes to get an AT gun built and into position.
14 Jun 2016, 03:15 AM
#4
Posts: 194
Sometimes soft counter like Panzerfaust + AP rounds or AT nades with mines can hold light armour for a while.
But I will build ATG if there are signs or hints my opponents are going fast armour
But I will build ATG if there are signs or hints my opponents are going fast armour
14 Jun 2016, 04:35 AM
#5
Posts: 70
Sometimes soft counter like Panzerfaust + AP rounds or AT nades with mines can hold light armour for a while.
But I will build ATG if there are signs or hints my opponents are going fast armour
So you will still tech AT nades preemptively?
14 Jun 2016, 05:52 AM
#6
Posts: 1063
As UKF always get a 6-pounder after your AEC/Bofor, USF can rely on Captain + Rifle AT-nade for a while, for Soviet currently I rush T-70 first then get AT later or get Zis first if OH goes double 222 or OKW goes Luchs. AT-nade should be teched when you see OH T2 up or when OKW does not go med HQ.
14 Jun 2016, 06:20 AM
#7
Posts: 239
it depends on fuel control and your opponent's playstyle, but you never want to be caught with no real AT on the field. even with a single AT gun you can usually position it properly and bait. one or two hits on a luchs will at least force him to back off and repair or risk losing it.
as USF, once i have a captain and an AT gun i base future decisions entirely on what the opponent is doing... but if i'm floating manpower mid/late game and have nothing else, i'll usually build another AT gun. those M1s are pretty bad.
as USF, once i have a captain and an AT gun i base future decisions entirely on what the opponent is doing... but if i'm floating manpower mid/late game and have nothing else, i'll usually build another AT gun. those M1s are pretty bad.
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14 Jun 2016, 06:24 AM
#8
Posts: 401
As Brits, if you plan to go AEC then get the AEC first. AEC is way much better at dealing with the Axis' light armours. The Luchs can circle-jerk the ATG and same with the 222s and since Brits don't have snare, the AEC would be more viable.
If you can control the AEC effectively and can keep it alive till the first medium armour's arrival then there isn't much to worry, the AEC can still kite the P4, you know. Better buy some extra infantries first, get a Cromwell then you can get ATGs if you fear that enemy armour force are more superior than your team's.
(2v2 perspective, i'm not sure about 1v1 or larger team games tho, but I use this strat and it's quite effective, at least to me)
If you can control the AEC effectively and can keep it alive till the first medium armour's arrival then there isn't much to worry, the AEC can still kite the P4, you know. Better buy some extra infantries first, get a Cromwell then you can get ATGs if you fear that enemy armour force are more superior than your team's.
(2v2 perspective, i'm not sure about 1v1 or larger team games tho, but I use this strat and it's quite effective, at least to me)
14 Jun 2016, 07:33 AM
#9
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
the AEC can still kite the P4, you know
How exactly a 40 range unit kites 40 range unit again?
Now, on the topic, I like to be prepared, but that does not mean I'll always have hard AT, that depends on the opponent and what he can pump out.
OKW used to be no-brainer here and if shrecks will be kept on spios, it still will, because there is no reason not to upgrade it asap.
General rule of thumb is, you should have AT gun on the field around 8th minute.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
14 Jun 2016, 08:47 AM
#10
Posts: 194
So you will still tech AT nades preemptively?
Yep
14 Jun 2016, 09:38 AM
#11
Posts: 70
It is actually quite funny to see people assume that AT must be hard AT like atg.... and assume that soft counters(faust, at nades) have already been teched
I usually only tech at nades for soviets when I see light veh and put out guards to deter, shreks for volks. The others I seen to be able to get the lights out as fast as the enemy or faster.
I usually only tech at nades for soviets when I see light veh and put out guards to deter, shreks for volks. The others I seen to be able to get the lights out as fast as the enemy or faster.
14 Jun 2016, 09:59 AM
#12
1 
Posts: 2885
It is actually quite funny to see people assume that AT must be hard AT like atg.... and assume that soft counters(faust, at nades) have already been teched
I usually only tech at nades for soviets when I see light veh and put out guards to deter, shreks for volks. The others I seen to be able to get the lights out as fast as the enemy or faster.
The whole point of light vehicles, and these are what you are usually getting your first AT against, is their shock value. Having AT on the field minimises the shock value, while teching it only when seeing the vehicle adds additional shock value to enemy units. They simply have free reign untill you come up with a counter. AT guns are the best counter becouse they have range that allows them to cover big part of the map and ambush enemy vehicles. They also scale better than any other early AT thanks to high penetration and damage (not counting M-42) so they are not becoming useless in AT department late game, just like guards. PIATs and shreck also scale well but, taking into consideration new patch, shreck is as much of investment as AT gun (about same amount of mp both for pgrens and sturmpio, they loose most AI power with upgrade) and PIAT needs good attack ground micro and is also probably going to get nerfed soon. Its worth it to learn PIAT micro though, its the best late game counter to super heavies.
14 Jun 2016, 11:08 AM
#13
Posts: 401
How exactly a 40 range unit kites 40 range unit again?
Pardon me, I use the wrong word.
What I meant here is that the AEC can deal quite some good amount of damage to the P4 while some random infantries of yours do the distraction. Sure it could be quite micro-intensive but most of the time are enough to scare the P4 away while you get your ATGs (If lack of fuel) or the Cromwell. Also, REs with flamer and dual piats along with ISs with bren are quite a strong force, ATGs usually I would use to defend rather than offense.
14 Jun 2016, 12:44 PM
#14
Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1
Depends on what you are playing.
If you are opening with an early sniper it pays to have AT nades teched vs Wehrmacht so that he can't bumrush you with a 222.
If you play UKF vs OKW and you notice that his troops keep coming on the field full health then you don't need to invest in an early AT gun. But if you notice his units do not return with full HP but he is throwing nades or has a panzershreck, you really need to prepare for a Luchs otherwise he will just rape you.
If you are opening with an early sniper it pays to have AT nades teched vs Wehrmacht so that he can't bumrush you with a 222.
If you play UKF vs OKW and you notice that his troops keep coming on the field full health then you don't need to invest in an early AT gun. But if you notice his units do not return with full HP but he is throwing nades or has a panzershreck, you really need to prepare for a Luchs otherwise he will just rape you.
14 Jun 2016, 12:49 PM
#15
Posts: 2115 | Subs: 1
i always try to have some sort of AT before a vehicle comes out
a m20, m15, stuart or t70 can wreck you really hard, up to the point where its pointless to get AT because you already have lost way too much, and thus the game.
reactionary AT is always a gamble and it depends on your opponents playstyle whether it will pay off or not, as some people might try to push their vehicle advantage really hard and some not, opting for more conservative play
a m20, m15, stuart or t70 can wreck you really hard, up to the point where its pointless to get AT because you already have lost way too much, and thus the game.
reactionary AT is always a gamble and it depends on your opponents playstyle whether it will pay off or not, as some people might try to push their vehicle advantage really hard and some not, opting for more conservative play
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14 Jun 2016, 14:50 PM
#16
Posts: 446 | Subs: 2
Be constantly building one around timings, cancel if enemies widely miss the timings.
Benefits of reactionary while not all the benefits of being prepared, and having liquid MP.
Benefits of reactionary while not all the benefits of being prepared, and having liquid MP.
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Argumentation, disagreement, and debate are critical for success.
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Argumentation, disagreement, and debate are critical for success.
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14 Jun 2016, 15:16 PM
#17
Posts: 1585 | Subs: 1
Be prepared.
You need AT the moment a vehicle comes in to attack and not a minute before, but by not having it before you risk getting overrun by the first vehicle.
Advice here is correct, watch what your opponent is doing, but don't be caught building an AT gun because you forgot and now you are in your base trying to fight back out on the field.
You need AT the moment a vehicle comes in to attack and not a minute before, but by not having it before you risk getting overrun by the first vehicle.
Advice here is correct, watch what your opponent is doing, but don't be caught building an AT gun because you forgot and now you are in your base trying to fight back out on the field.
14 Jun 2016, 15:19 PM
#18
Posts: 20
I normally get an AT-gun a bit early, as I tend to float manpower a bit in the early-mid game, so figure it's better to have it, but I think I'd be better off using that MP effectively.
14 Jun 2016, 15:25 PM
#19
Posts: 1063
The whole point of light vehicles, and these are what you are usually getting your first AT against, is their shock value. Having AT on the field minimises the shock value, while teching it only when seeing the vehicle adds additional shock value to enemy units. They simply have free reign untill you come up with a counter. AT guns are the best counter becouse they have range that allows them to cover big part of the map and ambush enemy vehicles. They also scale better than any other early AT thanks to high penetration and damage (not counting M-42) so they are not becoming useless in AT department late game, just like guards. PIATs and shreck also scale well but, taking into consideration new patch, shreck is as much of investment as AT gun (about same amount of mp both for pgrens and sturmpio, they loose most AI power with upgrade) and PIAT needs good attack ground micro and is also probably going to get nerfed soon. Its worth it to learn PIAT micro though, its the best late game counter to super heavies.
PIAT is more late game AT than anti light vehicle rush, I prefer Tank Hunter Section or AEC + 6-pounder. Also people keeps forget about mines: always lay mines when you have surplus muni, especially for Soviet and UK who don't normally get good AT, a light vehicle run into a mines is usually a death sentence for it.
14 Jun 2016, 17:25 PM
#20
Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1
Be prepared.
You need AT the moment a vehicle comes in to attack and not a minute before, but by not having it before you risk getting overrun by the first vehicle.
Advice here is correct, watch what your opponent is doing, but don't be caught building an AT gun because you forgot and now you are in your base trying to fight back out on the field.
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