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OKW (balance preview mode) - concerns and solutions

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4 Jun 2016, 20:45 PM
#21
avatar of SolidSteel

Posts: 74

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Jun 2016, 20:30 PMsinthe
5 MP40s would be cool. I thought even 3 STGs would be a better addition.

Why can't OKW have an unlockable weapons rack?

I'm not big on the crushing being removed.


Make it a 5 stg pack 90Mun, unlocked at vet3, allowing them to scale into a shock unit.
4 Jun 2016, 20:48 PM
#22
avatar of TheGentlemenTroll

Posts: 1044 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Jun 2016, 19:38 PMsinthe


What's the solution to American zookeepers blobbing?


Unreal Manpower bleed that will crush his economy harder than the 2008 Bank Crisis
4 Jun 2016, 20:49 PM
#23
avatar of Grim

Posts: 1096

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Jun 2016, 19:38 PMsinthe


What's the solution to American zookeepers blobbing?


-expensive infantry
-weaker handheld at vs stronger axis armour values
-need at least two bazookas to be worthwhile so that cripples the AI potency of the squad-which is exactly how it should be.

However I think USF blobbing will decrease with the coming patch now that HMG may be viable and they have mortars. Until now all they really have is Rifles and officers.
4 Jun 2016, 20:50 PM
#24
avatar of Rappy

Posts: 526

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Jun 2016, 20:49 PMGrim


-expensive infantry
-weaker handheld at vs stronger axis armour values
-need at least two bazookas to be worthwhile so that cripples the AI potency of the squad-which is exactly how it should be.

However I think USF blobbing will decrease with the coming patch now that HMG may be viable and they have mortars. Until now all they really have is Rifles and officers.

Yeah except now usf get t0 smoke with mortar. Mg no problem at all.
4 Jun 2016, 21:01 PM
#25
avatar of sinthe

Posts: 414

If OKW schreck blobbing is an issue (I think it is an issue), why isn't the zook blobbing being treated as the same issue in a different faction?

It's essentially the same. Even if the Schrecks are better they are more expensive and limited to one.
4 Jun 2016, 21:05 PM
#26
avatar of TheGentlemenTroll

Posts: 1044 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Jun 2016, 21:01 PMsinthe
If OKW schreck blobbing is an issue (I think it is an issue), why isn't the zook blobbing being treated as the same issue in a different faction?

It's essentially the same. Even if the Schrecks are better they are more expensive and limited to one.


Its not though
4 Jun 2016, 21:06 PM
#27
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930

the Okw's anti-tank capability problem is entirely related to the medical truck and mech truck dilemma.

The Puma can counter any allied light while the luch can handle allied vehicle with support. The main problem with going mech is that you're skipping healing.

the problem with going medical truck is that you're fairly weak against the early vehicle. the only thing remotely close to being an AT vehicle in the med truck is the flak ht, and that thing is crap.

then the obivous solution is to buff the flak ht. This promote combined arms and bypass the issue with schreck and raketen. Ost already prove that you need a vehicle of your own to counter vehicle. Don't try to buff the rak or the sturm schreck.
4 Jun 2016, 21:27 PM
#28
avatar of sinthe

Posts: 414



Its not though


Functionally, exactly the same. Almost worse, If you consider it's easier for americans to feild way more at guns.

So OKW schreck blobs dead, but American AT blobs are ok.

All the answers for schreck blobs are the same answers to zook blobs.
4 Jun 2016, 21:42 PM
#29
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Jun 2016, 21:27 PMsinthe


Functionally, exactly the same. Almost worse, If you consider it's easier for americans to feild way more at guns.

So OKW schreck blobs dead, but American AT blobs are ok.

All the answers for schreck blobs are the same answers to zook blobs.


bazooka penetration: 130.0/120.0/110.0 (ost p4 armor: 180)

panzerschreck penetration: 180.0/170.0/160.0 (sherman armor: 160)

penetration make a big difference. the bazooka have problem with stuff like panzer4. the panzerschreck will eat sherman alive.
4 Jun 2016, 21:57 PM
#30
avatar of thatboyarmy

Posts: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Jun 2016, 17:03 PMEsxile


Build a Puma and stop asking for buff.
4 Jun 2016, 22:29 PM
#32
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Jun 2016, 21:01 PMsinthe
If OKW schreck blobbing is an issue (I think it is an issue), why isn't the zook blobbing being treated as the same issue in a different faction?

It's essentially the same. Even if the Schrecks are better they are more expensive and limited to one.


Hint:

Its not the same and its not an issue.
4 Jun 2016, 22:31 PM
#33
avatar of TheGentlemenTroll

Posts: 1044 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Jun 2016, 21:27 PMsinthe


Functionally, exactly the same. Almost worse, If you consider it's easier for americans to feild way more at guns.

So OKW schreck blobs dead, but American AT blobs are ok.

All the answers for schreck blobs are the same answers to zook blobs.


Zooks are good but not good enough to blob with, as it almost feels like theres a 50% chance that it will bounce and getting a 280mp Rifle with solid AI and making it a dedicated AT unit is risky. Volks on the other hand are able to have a very effective AT threat with the shrek while also managing to retain a decent AI ability, which is unlike Rifles who basically need BARs to remain effective in later stages and zooks will make rifles lose engagements to Volks easily.
4 Jun 2016, 22:40 PM
#34
avatar of PencilBatRation

Posts: 794



Zooks are good but not good enough to blob with,
They are good enough to blob with, AT nade mediums and kill them.

They are just not as potent as the shreck.
4 Jun 2016, 22:42 PM
#35
avatar of Wygrif

Posts: 278



In other words, raketen has all the wonderful features, but none of them proper for an AT gun, that's actualy the problem.
And ZIS it's a wonderful AT compared to it. In fact, any soviet crew is wonderful because of its resilience. Having resilience (because of six men crew) it has the chance to see late game. And when a unit sees late game, it means experience added. And experience added is the most valuable thing in this game. That's a chapter where raketen has big issues.


Raketens are great, its just that (as with all at guns) they don't pair all that well with their faction. They require quite a bit more micro than any of the others. When you combine that with their smaller range, OKW's lack of snares, and the availability of flatly superior Volks-based AT no one really bothered with them.

Given the balance changes, I expect that folks will figure out ways to make them shine. Baiting light vehicles into arc with an isolated squad, which can then turn and snare, for example. Frankly, I don't think we're really gonna know until we've had some time with this in automatch.
4 Jun 2016, 23:30 PM
#36
avatar of LuGer33

Posts: 174

I don't understand how anyone can think a faction with ALL of the following non-doctrinal units are weak w/ AT, at any point of the game:

-Tier 0 anti-tank gun (recently buffed, can camouflage, can garrison, can retreat)
-Tier 0 infantry that has a vehicle snare
-Tier 0 infantry that has Panzershrek
-Puma, light tank hunter that hard counters all Allied light vehicles and armor; reliably penetrates most Allied mediums
-not one but TWO dedicated tank destroyers w/ tremendous survivability due to high armor: Jagdpanzer IV and Panther
-Tier 0 best heavy tank in the game that kills Allied tank destroyers in 2-3 shots and reliably kills 2-3 models every time it shoots at Allied infantry

How can you say with a straight face OKW needs AT buffs at this point? I almost think OKW has too much AT as the patch currently stands (e.g., if Shreks go to Sturms, Volks probably don't need snare anymore). Yes, its anti-tank gun is (arguably) less survivable than other ATGs, but so what? It can cloak, it can garrison, it's cheap, you can always build it no matter what tech you choose, and it can retreat.

I don't know. I feel like when you have so many armored options that are statistically superior across the board than Allied counterparts, maybe you don't need to have the best anti-tank infantry / weapon teams too...
Phy
4 Jun 2016, 23:53 PM
#37
avatar of Phy

Posts: 509 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Jun 2016, 18:40 PMaaa


1. noob. Your thoughts are irrelevant.


LOL
5 Jun 2016, 00:07 AM
#38
avatar of UlyssesBellefonte

Posts: 40

Yeah I had some Volks get totally shredded by Commandos and then mg34 wiped by the commando nade, gammon bomb. FeelsBadMan

Volks survivability seems a little low versus riflemen and infantry sections at medium range, not sure about cons or penals but I imagine it is worse vs penals, they can probably handle cons ok though. I think that OKW are still a strong faction in all stages of the game.

The flak HT needs a buff in my opinion, not worth it's cost, it is under utilised as a result of its poor performance.

15 fuel for medics and repairs delays mid-game armor too long if the game is evenly balanced. It is even worse if you are on the back foot. You need the medics for unit preservation otherwise you can't deal with Allied infantry in the late game
5 Jun 2016, 11:41 AM
#39
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Jun 2016, 20:42 PMMr +
JohnnyB watch your player card and think.... okw has the strongest start, they have the heaviest tank and it is not a call in, the cheapest infantry and u cry? l2p okw


I stopped "waching" my player card since I started playing the balance preview mode exclusively (meaning since its release) aka since then I didn't touch COH2 original game because I don't have enough time for both. What I wrote here is based on my own playing experience.
5 Jun 2016, 11:47 AM
#40
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1

I don't understand how anyone can think a faction with ALL of the following non-doctrinal units are weak w/ AT, at any point of the game:

-Tier 0 anti-tank gun (recently buffed, can camouflage, can garrison, can retreat)
-Tier 0 infantry that has a vehicle snare
-Tier 0 infantry that has Panzershrek
-Puma, light tank hunter that hard counters all Allied light vehicles and armor; reliably penetrates most Allied mediums
-not one but TWO dedicated tank destroyers w/ tremendous survivability due to high armor: Jagdpanzer IV and Panther
-Tier 0 best heavy tank in the game that kills Allied tank destroyers in 2-3 shots and reliably kills 2-3 models every time it shoots at Allied infantry

How can you say with a straight face OKW needs AT buffs at this point? I almost think OKW has too much AT as the patch currently stands (e.g., if Shreks go to Sturms, Volks probably don't need snare anymore). Yes, its anti-tank gun is (arguably) less survivable than other ATGs, but so what? It can cloak, it can garrison, it's cheap, you can always build it no matter what tech you choose, and it can retreat.

I don't know. I feel like when you have so many armored options that are statistically superior across the board than Allied counterparts, maybe you don't need to have the best anti-tank infantry / weapon teams too...


My concerns are regarding early - middle game AT solutions. To answer your question: I'd rather have a viable AT solution than 2 weak and inappropriate AT solutions even if acting together. SPs - can quickly be wiped. Raketen - cvan quickly be forced into retreat or flanked and killed by its own counter. It dies at any wind blow.

I red here alot a beautifull stories about how to lure tanks into raketen's range, then faust them and so on.... The truth in the field is that NO TANK is going to fight alone and the enemy infantry that accompanies the tanks/vehicles will primary target your raketen that will die in no time compared to other AT guns in this game. Then, you will find yourself in front of a tank with no AT solution and you will run to base (what else?). Let's be practical and judge by reality, huh?

Further, I never see a good player adventuring with his tanks / vehicles to deep. We all know the forward - back tango movement that keeps our tanks at a safe distance while they snipe enemy units....
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