Ostheer feels really really weak (POLL)

The thing that peeves me with Ostheer is that, by the start of the game, I can already perfectly predict my army composition/build-order until T3/T4.

The biggest culprit are some units that are so powerful, that they have become a no-brainer:
- Is there ever any reason not to build the Sniper?
- With that pricetag/versatility, is there ever any reason not to build at least one 222?

(This leads to sniper + 222, and some fluff units around it).

However, a nascent culprit is that OST lacks sidegrades:
- Their cost is integrated into the teching cost.
- However, lack of sidegrade options takes decision-making away from the player.

The only real decision an OST player can make is between T3/T4:
- Do I forego T4 and stick with T3?
- Do I skip T3 and jump to T4 (only on certain modes)
- Do I completely skip teching, since I have Stug-E's in my loadout?

USF can choose among:
- Faster teching
- Nades
- Racks
- Healing

UKF can choose among:
- Faster tech
- Racks
- 5-th man
- Bofors
- AEC

OKW can choose among:
- Healing
- Puma or Luchs

Soviets can choose among:
- Cheese
- Cheese
- Cheese
- GTFO

Being a combined arm fashion, it's hard to recrew weapon teams.

Try using an unupgraded halftrack on the field. It works wonders to maintain your field presence. No, it's not as good as mashing the T-key WFA-style, but it works just fine for capping/recrewing team weapons.

Halftracks are, literally, the only advantage EFA factions have over the others when it comes to this. I am not sure why people don't use them.

There's only one problem here, Panther's firerate, due to its VERY low ROF and bad accuracy on the move, it just lacks punch for a tank of its class.

Brummbar is getting fixed so that's my only beef with ostheer's tech progression.

I play this game for the OST. They are my favorite faction! I dont think they are unbalanced though, they are just a punk to play because of their combined arms. That said I just want some new commanders for them. Different commanders, maybe different doctrinal artillery or infantry, it would be so cool!

You do understand that balance is done in the name of 1v1 and 1v1 alone? Your comment is useless.

You do understand this was never stated anywhere and many balance patches also adressed issues from teamgames? Your comment is useless.

Because there is a high possibility OKW is involved in the higher modes. Most people play OKW. I almost never meet Ostheer players in 2vs2. Double Ostheer in 2vs2 is suicide. Ostheer is good for supporting OKW (caches, Paks, MGs, Command Panzer IV). On its own it is simply lackluster.

That's a good point, however I don't think it weakens my argument in any way.

There's only one problem here, Panther's firerate, due to its VERY low ROF and bad accuracy on the move, it just lacks punch for a tank of its class.

Brummbar is getting fixed so that's my only beef with ostheer's tech progression.

So, when the Panther has a very low rof, what does the Firefly have? Speaking about bad accuracy on the move.. the only tank that kinda falls in the same class as the Panther is the Comet, which has (very slightly) inferiour moving accuracy on long range until it hits vet2. The Panther is fine, if not borderline op considering the effective task differences of axis units.

The problems with ostheer are simple to fix -

1.Ostwind better accuracy and AOE
2.PZ 4 slightly better penetration(main gun less pen than bazooka)
3.Panther increase ROF
4.Tiger increase front armor to 320.
5.T4 unlock gren 5th man upgrade(give con dp upgrade to compensate soviet)
6.Nerf indirect fire range of british earlygame emplacement to which ost has no real counter except doctrinal fuel based asset.

And ostheer fixed.

There's only one problem here, Panther's firerate, due to its VERY low ROF and bad accuracy on the move, it just lacks punch for a tank of its class.

Brummbar is getting fixed so that's my only beef with ostheer's tech progression.

The Panther trades a bit of it's Rate of Fire (let's face it, it's not -that- slow) for:
- Massively better penetration than its peers
- Great Durability (HP/Armour)
- Great speed
- Insanely good veterancy bonuses

If a Panther feels a bit not-too-strong at Vet0, it eats everything alive at Vet3.
- If you feel like some of the Vet bonuses of the Panther should be gotten at Vet0 (like the Jackson buffs), I can empathise with you.
- If you consider that the Panther needs a straight buff, you're insane.

If you believe that the Panther is UP with its penetration and it's RoF, you must surely be believing that the SU85 is getting butchered in the next patch. In that case, if the opposition has gotten weaker, why does the Panther need a buff?

The Panther trades a bit of it's Rate of Fire (let's face it, it's not -that- slow) for:
- Massively better penetration than its peers
- Great Durability (HP/Armour)
- Great speed
- Insanely good veterancy bonuses

If a Panther feels a bit not-too-strong at Vet0, it eats everything alive at Vet3.
- If you feel like some of the Vet bonuses of the Panther should be gotten at Vet0 (like the Jackson buffs), I can empathise with you.
- If you consider that the Panther needs a straight buff, you're insane.

If you believe that the Panther is UP with its penetration and it's RoF, you must surely be believing that the SU85 is getting butchered in the next patch. In that case, if the opposition has gotten weaker, why does the Panther need a buff?

There is nothing wrong with the Panther's performance or veterancy. The problem is that going T4 and getting a Panther as Ostheer is too expensive. The cost of going T4 and getting a Panther could be better spent getting a few Panzer IVS or Stug IIIs, that will serve you better.

Going for Panther as Ostheer isn't viable, since you can get equal or better performance by simply investing in multiple t3 units. This also means you can have more AT and AI armor pressence around the map compared to a single Panther.

The cost of going T4 and getting a Panther could be better spent getting a few Panzer IVS or Stug IIIs, that will serve you better.

So shall they nerf OST T3 for being too efficient then? Or should they buff T4 for being too lackluster or expensive?

So shall they nerf OST T3 for being too efficient then? Or should they buff T4 for being too lackluster or expensive?

That is not what I am saying. All I am saying is that t4 isn't worth the investment when t3 can get the same job done.

Panther has no impact relative to the cost of fielding it.Its only imposing in large teamgames when u can mass large numbers of them.A dud gun on mobile fortress,means they are overshadowed for their price by allied options like comet,t-34/85 ,jackson.
Allied tank destroyers keep getting pen buffs,yet german tank armour is staying largely static.The only reason panther is useable was becoz of the armour buff a while back.Tiger front armour is now something allied armor laughs at.

Try using an unupgraded halftrack on the field. It works wonders to maintain your field presence. No, it's not as good as mashing the T-key WFA-style, but it works just fine for capping/recrewing team weapons.

Halftracks are, literally, the only advantage EFA factions have over the others when it comes to this. I am not sure why people don't use them.

They are quite the fuel investment for a unit that does basically zero dmg to the enemy. In team games it'd pretty map dependant. Small maps make it less relevant and on bigger maps you often have your OKWs FHQ not to far away where you can soft retreat to and get healing in addition to reinforcing.

The ostheer HT can be awesome but there are a number of other things that are more important imo. I still use this unit tho when the time calls for it. Usually with spotting scopes and no 222.

The Panther trades a bit of it's Rate of Fire (let's face it, it's not -that- slow) for:
- Massively better penetration than its peers
- Great Durability (HP/Armour)
- Great speed
- Insanely good veterancy bonuses

If a Panther feels a bit not-too-strong at Vet0, it eats everything alive at Vet3.
- If you feel like some of the Vet bonuses of the Panther should be gotten at Vet0 (like the Jackson buffs), I can empathise with you.
- If you consider that the Panther needs a straight buff, you're insane.

If you believe that the Panther is UP with its penetration and it's RoF, you must surely be believing that the SU85 is getting butchered in the next patch. In that case, if the opposition has gotten weaker, why does the Panther need a buff?

The firerate IS VERY slow, less than a second from a jadgtiger infact.

How's the 85 getting butchered? now it gets to be reliable vs all armor while losing 1- sec in reload for a 30% total pen on vet plus even more base pen? and smaller target size with a small cost increase.

Even then its going to fire faster than the panther, they're not exactly equivalent units either though.

So, when the Panther has a very low rof, what does the Firefly have? Speaking about bad accuracy on the move.. the only tank that kinda falls in the same class as the Panther is the Comet, which has (very slightly) inferiour moving accuracy on long range until it hits vet2. The Panther is fine, if not borderline op considering the effective task differences of axis units.

You're not seriously comparing the firefly to the panther right? Completely different roles.

Suggesting that the panther is op with the comet in the same sentence, cmon man you're gonna need to try harder than that, the comet will compete with the panther's in its strenghts (AT) and easily while outperforming it in the other areas (AI) for about the same cost.

And dont get me started on their abilities.

Panther has no impact relative to the cost of fielding it.Its only imposing in large teamgames when u can mass large numbers of them.A dud gun on mobile fortress,means they are overshadowed for their price by allied options like comet,t-34/85 ,jackson.
Allied tank destroyers keep getting pen buffs,yet german tank armour is staying largely static.The only reason panther is useable was becoz of the armour buff a while back.Tiger front armour is now something allied armor laughs at.

Exactly my thoughs, panther has no teeth, but high armor, allied TD's are getting armorpen/sight bonuses, making that armor even less relevant while still lacking in offense, guess what situation will that cause.

The firerate IS VERY slow, less than a second from a jadgtiger infact.

How's the 85 getting butchered? now it gets to be reliable vs all armor while losing 1- sec in reload for a 30% total pen on vet plus even more base pen? and smaller target size with a small cost increase.

Even then its going to fire faster than the panther, they're not exactly equivalent units either though.

The same conversation about Panthers, Comets, and the other zoo animals has been going in parallel in another thread.

Regarding Panther vs Comet, let's, first, acknowledge some hard facts:

Comets actually lose very hard to Panthers.

I have calculated the probabilities of winning for this engagement, and it looks like this:

When both units are at Vet0

- The panther has 75-80% chance of winning on ranges from 0 to 40
- The probability drops to 51% at range 50

The lighter the portion of a bar is, the more HP the winning tank will have after the engagement.

For instance, at range 25, the Comet has 30% winning chance. This can be broken down into:
- about 20% chance of surviving with 160HP left
- about 7.5% chance of surviving with 320HP left
- about 2.5% chance of surviving with 480HP left

When both units are at Vet3

- The Panther has 99.9% chance to win on ranges from 0 to 25
- The Panther has at least 95% chance of winning on ranges from 25 to 40
- The probability drops to 85% only at range 50

(Yes. The graphs also take into account that the Comet has been upgraded with the Tank Commander).

Note that:
- Range 50 is the max range. Thus, the Panther can choose to disengage whenever
- It requires a spotter for either tank to be able to continue to trade shots. If, at any time, the LOS is broken, the Comet loses its advantage to use its slightly higher RoF. Thus, the Panther wins there, too.

Now, regarding the SU-85 comment.

1 second difference makes a HUGE difference when the original quantity is tiny.
- an 1-second increase for something that took 4 seconds to complete means that it is now 20% less efficient.
- an 1-second increase for a huge cooldown (e.g., B4 barrage) is not noticeable at all.

If you read the patch notes carefully, you are going to see that the SU-85 not only lost its Vet0 reload speed (-25%). It also lost its Vet2 reload speed (that's another -30%):
https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/comment/245956/#Comment_245956

Cumulatively, the SU will fire 1.9 times slower than before.

This is a -50% performance reduction for anything with armour 190 or below (T3, JP4, etc). The SU-85 paid a heavy price to get its penetration and accuracy increased, so that it no longer fires dud shells vs Panthers and the like (and that the Soviets get a reliable counter to Panther-spam).

Now, what do you propose that the Panther sacrifice so that its RoF increases? Don't you agree that the charts show it is already very powerful as it is?

The same conversation about Panthers, Comets, and the other zoo animals has been going in parallel in another thread.

Regarding Panther vs Comet, let's, first, acknowledge some hard facts:


Now, regarding the SU-85 comment.

1 second difference makes a HUGE difference when the original quantity is tiny.
- an 1-second increase for something that took 4 seconds to complete means that it is now 20% less efficient.
- an 1-second increase for a huge cooldown (e.g., B4 barrage) is not noticeable at all.

If you read the patch notes carefully, you are going to see that the SU-85 not only lost its Vet0 reload speed (-25%). It also lost its Vet2 reload speed (that's another -30%):
https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/comment/245956/#Comment_245956

Cumulatively, the SU will fire 1.9 times slower than before.

This is a -50% performance reduction for anything with armour 190 or below (T3, JP4, etc). The SU-85 paid a heavy price to get its penetration and accuracy increased, so that it no longer fires dud shells vs Panthers and the like (and that the Soviets get a reliable counter to Panther-spam).

Now, what do you propose that the Panther sacrifice so that its RoF increases? Don't you agree that the charts show it is already very powerful as it is?

Reduce panther penetration..its not needed that much.Reduce panther vet 2,3 bonuses a bit ,done.comet is better than panther still because it can kill AT guns on its own and wipe squads.The 200 plus and increasing pen of allied TD and their range makes panther armour increasingly less and less imposing..tiger armor is already a bit of a joke.

The same conversation about Panthers, Comets, and the other zoo animals has been going in parallel in another thread.

Regarding Panther vs Comet, let's, first, acknowledge some hard facts:

[snip]

Now, what do you propose that the Panther sacrifice so that its RoF increases? Don't you agree that the charts show it is already very powerful as it is?

Now, I don't really have a strong opinion here, but you realize that 'winning' means there's a Panther that's one shot away from death. That's a razor thin margin to maintain across an entire tank battle.

It's not that the Panther beats the Comet, it's that the Panther is neutralized by the Comet. Not to mention the Comet also solidly shuts down Ostheer T3. Given that the ratio at max range is virtually 50/50 you have to realize that either side is at a major disadvantage for being on the offensive. And I'll tell you, the Panther is the first and only stock unit that Ostheer has that has the potential to assault entrenched Brits. (And by that I mean Bofors.)

Compare the Comet and Panther all you want, but I would wager Ostheer losing a Panther is far more crippling than a Brit losing a Comet. Comets come with, and are supported by, the British faction, which is what I think is really what grinds people's gears about the Comet.

That said, I don't think the issue is with the Comet or the Panther, but the kinds of units that may or may not be supporting them.

Now, I don't really have a strong opinion here, but you realize that 'winning' means there's a Panther that's one shot away from death. That's a razor thin margin to maintain across an entire tank battle.

You are completely right. The way I would be reading the chart is that nobody would try to prolong an 1v1 fight with expensive tanks, where both tanks are 1 hit away from death:
- The Brit guy knows his tank is more expensive, and has a much smaller chance to penetrate
- The OST guy should be happy his Panther managed to accumulate all that veterancy. The longer the Panther stays alive, the easier it will be to seal-club the enemy's Comets.

Thus, I guess that the deeply-shaded red/green bars should represent a tie, where both tanks disengage, and everything else represents a clear victory.

However, even then, the Panther still has a distinct advantage over the Comet, even at Vet0 (in all ranges but max-range). That's even though the Panther is cheaper on all counts (MP/Fuel/Popcap).

Imo, it is a good development that Comet spam has a hardcounter. Otherwise, having an army of overefficient generalist tanks would be ultra-frustrating to play against.

On the other hand, Panthers also become quite the overpotent generalist tank army when spammed (and vetted). That's because MG damage really adds up. This is why Panther spam needs a counter too. Imo, the new patch partly addresses this injustice. However, that won't stop Panther spam being potent.

However, it irks me that some people are requesting for generally-speaking "Panther buffs", simply because now a valid counter to that spam may possibly exist. That, and the fact that the same people don't acknowledge just how powerful Panthers are to begin with.

I would like to believe that everyone agrees that having an overpotent tool stagnates the game. To quote the Katitoff principle, A Panther/Comet should be a tool; not THE tool.

The thing that peeves me with Ostheer is that, by the start of the game, I can already perfectly predict my army composition/build-order until T3/T4.

The biggest culprit are some units that are so powerful, that they have become a no-brainer:
- Is there ever any reason not to build the Sniper?
- With that pricetag/versatility, is there ever any reason not to build at least one 222?

(This leads to sniper + 222, and some fluff units around it).

However, a nascent culprit is that OST lacks sidegrades:
- Their cost is integrated into the teching cost.
- However, lack of sidegrade options takes decision-making away from the player.

The only real decision an OST player can make is between T3/T4:
- Do I forego T4 and stick with T3?
- Do I skip T3 and jump to T4 (only on certain modes)
- Do I completely skip teching, since I have Stug-E's in my loadout?

USF can choose among:
- Faster teching
- Nades
- Racks
- Healing

UKF can choose among:
- Faster tech
- Racks
- 5-th man
- Bofors
- AEC

OKW can choose among:
- Healing
- Puma or Luchs

Soviets can choose among:
- Cheese
- Cheese
- Cheese
- GTFO



Try using an unupgraded halftrack on the field. It works wonders to maintain your field presence. No, it's not as good as mashing the T-key WFA-style, but it works just fine for capping/recrewing team weapons.

Halftracks are, literally, the only advantage EFA factions have over the others when it comes to this. I am not sure why people don't use them.

What kind of sidegrades did you have in mind for Ostheer? Personally, I think that Ostheer should have a 5th man upgrade available in T3 or T4 as I've stated in another thread whereby this 5th man would have an MP 40 instead of a rifle so as not to upset the squad's delicate balance. As for Ostheer needing a counter to T-70s, AECs, and Stuarts that they won't simply run around, perhaps an upgrade for the 251 for a short-barreled 75 mm?