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Wanted: Testers for core army testing

1 Jun 2016, 09:38 AM
#1
avatar of Junaid

Posts: 509

Hello all,

So, I had an idea: conducting tests using only the core armies. No doctrines. No bulletins.

The purpose is to:

a) See how the armies perform without any doctrinal units. [Caveat: Shocks and guards are the exception for reasons below]. This, I feel, will clarify which armies are under performing at core and relying on crutch units etc. I feel that this will provide valuable balance feedback. Commanders should open new roads for us, not be the roads we travel on.

b) Evolve new strategies. Break the meta. Experiment without the rank pressure. (The benefit to you!)

Purpose of this thread:

1) See who is interested (obviously). Sign up in the thread and in the steam group (more below).

2) Comment/critique the methodology. In particular, please critique how to integrate the soviets into this. They are the only faction designed to work with a doctrine. For now, I feel that making shocks/guards the exception is a decent workaround.

Method

  • I will set up a steam group with all interested. (At work right now, so not possible at the moment. Later tonight)

    A steam group for interested has been set up.

    URL: http://steamcommunity.com/groups/coh2core

    Those interested please join. Its pretty barebones now, but will flesh out more tomorrow.

  • Depending on the number of interested players, will divide into skill brackets for each faction according to leader-board rank/level.
  • Those interested can then set up custom games with similarly skilled players. I feel that 1v1 and 2v2 are the only viable modes. 3v3 and 4v4 involve too much spam (Critique wanted here - let me know what you think).
  • Testers must provide a replay of the match at the end. Those who don't provide replays will not be allowed to continue as members of the steam group.

1 Jun 2016, 09:58 AM
#2
avatar of some one

Posts: 935

I would strongly support MirageFla mod .

Would be nice to see a groupe of people working on it not a one man.
1 Jun 2016, 10:27 AM
#3
avatar of InsanePriest
Donator 22

Posts: 62

I like to do the very same thing in mentee training. For me it was more about getting to know the core units of each faction better. For the first game I would also encourage you to play without guards / shocks and try to make Soviets still work for you. With T1, Penals, Mines, something crazy.

Anywho I like this idea and you can count me in.

I'm not interested in 3v3, 4v4 matches as they tend to be flodded and full of spammed units, blobbing is too high rewarded. Sometimes I have the same feeling about 2v2s :/

At some point adding some commanders would be lovely. Especially soviets and Ostheer got underused doctrines (NKVD etc. -> Howitzers :banana: )

Great to see this thread and someone interested in non-meta :)
1 Jun 2016, 10:56 AM
#4
avatar of medhood

Posts: 621

OKW will be really strong especially May Patch OKW as they get access to everything they need except snipers
1 Jun 2016, 11:12 AM
#5
avatar of some one

Posts: 935

Especially soviets and Ostheer got underused doctrines (NKVD etc. -> Howitzers :banana: )

Great to see this thread and someone interested in non-meta :)


It is already done in MirageFla competitive mod. NKVD, Howitzer and more non-meta stuff
1 Jun 2016, 13:54 PM
#6
avatar of Junaid

Posts: 509

Guys, this isn't about Miraflega's mod. (Though I do completely support that noble endeavor).

His mod is good but its not what we play with right now, do we? The idea is to test core armies as-is.

I could see including the june-preview into this, is that what you all mean?
1 Jun 2016, 13:55 PM
#7
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Jun 2016, 13:54 PMJunaid

His mod is good but its not what we play with right now, do we? The idea is to test core armies as-is.


Given the changes to come relatively soon, I fail to see the point.
1 Jun 2016, 14:16 PM
#8
avatar of kitekaze

Posts: 378

The one who suffer most with this kind of test is Soviet, followed by USF.

OKW by far stands supreme. UKF and Ostheer hold the same spot.

In other word, SOV < USF < UKF=OST < OKW.
1 Jun 2016, 15:14 PM
#9
avatar of TickTack

Posts: 578

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Jun 2016, 09:38 AMJunaid
Hello all,

So, I had an idea: conducting tests using only the core armies. No doctrines. No bulletins.

The purpose is to:

a) See how the armies perform without any doctrinal units. [Caveat: Shocks and guards are the exception for reasons below]. This, I feel, will clarify which armies are under performing at core and relying on crutch units etc. I feel that this will provide valuable balance feedback. Commanders should open new roads for us, not be the roads we travel on.

It's a nice idea but the players should NOT use guards and shocks as these are NOT core units, do not try to justify their inclusion somehow. Just leave them out.

The core design does NOT depend on one or two commanders: i.e. those with Guards and Shocks, because that means that any other commanders are not designed to be used.
1 Jun 2016, 15:38 PM
#10
avatar of Tiger Baron

Posts: 3145 | Subs: 2


It's a nice idea but the players should NOT use guards and shocks as these are NOT core units, do not try to justify their inclusion somehow. Just leave them out.

The core design does NOT depend on one or two commanders: i.e. those with Guards and Shocks, because that means that any other commanders are not designed to be used.


The Soviets were built around Commander choice tho and rely upon it a hell of a lot more than any other Army, at least for now.
1 Jun 2016, 17:58 PM
#11
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885

Commanders fill different roles depending on a faction. For all factions they give small and cool abilities that benefit an army, but for some of them, namely SOV, OKW (especially in live version) and USF (to lesser extent) they also fill the gaps in core army or give some units that are powerfull enough to make these gaps managable.

For SOV, such gaps are lack of elite infantry and lack of handheld AT. For OKW, lack of mg and easily accessible AI infantry. For USF its mines.

One could say that this is bad design but in fact it is not the case. These 3 factions are the aggressive ones, so they get commanders that dramatically change the way faction plays and can surprise the opponent, paying with the fact they usually need to pick the doctrine first. On the other hand, OST and UKF, being defencive factions have most things in their core so they don't need to pick that fast, but they pay with predictable unit composition and, in theory, smaller bonusses.

This basically means there is no real way or need to ballance around core. On the other hand this design is not always followed cousing big differences between commander usability.

I feel the most important thing is to ballance faction commanders between each other, so I would change your idea to test factions with the commanders that are used the least in automatch and tournaments, instead of no commanders at all. Giving them some buffs is necessery but nobody really knows what kind of buffs becouse they are either played against meta commanders or not at all. Playing them out against equal opponents could really show how to make them shine. I also strongly belive that with all commanders being more or less equal there will be no point in ballancing core.
1 Jun 2016, 18:07 PM
#12
avatar of What Doth Life?!
Patrion 27

Posts: 1664

This is noble and all... but do you really think Relic is gonna balance more past this upcoming patch and not just dump their resources into DOW3?
1 Jun 2016, 18:20 PM
#13
avatar of TickTack

Posts: 578



The Soviets were built around Commander choice tho and rely upon it a hell of a lot more than any other Army, at least for now.

Then why only want to include guards and shocks? Because he thinks they're more representative than the other call-ins?

bullshit

It's not that I love sovs too much, it's just that it's bad science. That pisses me off.
1 Jun 2016, 18:56 PM
#14
avatar of Junaid

Posts: 509

Feedback on exactly how to integrate the Soviets would be helpful. Keep it coming. I'll parse the thread tomorrow, its extremely late in my timezone.
1 Jun 2016, 18:56 PM
#15
avatar of Junaid

Posts: 509

Steam group is up. Have edited first post.
1 Jun 2016, 21:11 PM
#16
avatar of Tiger Baron

Posts: 3145 | Subs: 2

Commanders fill different roles depending on a faction. For all factions they give small and cool abilities that benefit an army, but for some of them, namely SOV, OKW (especially in live version) and USF (to lesser extent) they also fill the gaps in core army or give some units that are powerfull enough to make these gaps managable.

For SOV, such gaps are lack of elite infantry and lack of handheld AT. For OKW, lack of mg and easily accessible AI infantry. For USF its mines.

One could say that this is bad design but in fact it is not the case. These 3 factions are the aggressive ones, so they get commanders that dramatically change the way faction plays and can surprise the opponent, paying with the fact they usually need to pick the doctrine first. On the other hand, OST and UKF, being defencive factions have most things in their core so they don't need to pick that fast, but they pay with predictable unit composition and, in theory, smaller bonusses.

This basically means there is no real way or need to ballance around core. On the other hand this design is not always followed cousing big differences between commander usability.

I feel the most important thing is to ballance faction commanders between each other, so I would change your idea to test factions with the commanders that are used the least in automatch and tournaments, instead of no commanders at all. Giving them some buffs is necessery but nobody really knows what kind of buffs becouse they are either played against meta commanders or not at all. Playing them out against equal opponents could really show how to make them shine. I also strongly belive that with all commanders being more or less equal there will be no point in ballancing core.


Soviets are lacking far more sadly, like an MG nest by default for example, a good medium tank, something which the current T-34/76 is not filling the role of and so forth.

OKW on the other hand is really only lacking an MG by default but that is an integral part of a core Army, no other Army in the history of CoH has only had a doctrinal MG which was not part of the core Army. And I don't really see how Obers, Sturms and Jaegers aren't "easily accesable" AI infantry, not to mention Falls, but then again I do agree that pretty much all of them are expensive (if you consider 300 man power for the Sturm's performance expensive) and 2 of them are doctrinal but still, Obers are Elite AI infantry while Sturms are good at doing whatever as long as you keep them safe and alive which is a bit hard to do since it's a 4 man squad compared to the British RE when upgraded.

UKF is only lacking a mobile in-direct fire weapon by default, which brings up the point you made which is very well put, that doctrines make these gaps manageable but still, paying fuel for something which is supposed to be there already... I just don't see the point, better to make the mortar pit a defensive position/emplacement which can garrison 2 mortars instead of having them spawn with/in it from the get go, just give them some sort of boost/bonus once inside with vet, like the vickers, instead of this immobile emplacement which everybody and their grandmothers are whining about, besides the bofors. And if you're asking if it's possible, yes, it is, I have done it because Svanh told me how, and I knew it was possible before since Europe at War, a very old and big mod for CoH that is centered around realism, has also done this, by using the mortar pit as an MG nest in which the MG can rotate a full 360 degrees to engine targets, like in a normal building.

The USF is lacking practical and well performing units on the other hand, at the current moment, their MG comes too late to be doing the job it should be doing, which is killing and suppressing infantry thus halting a blob/infantry advance because of some better light AT capabilities which are none-existent atm, I mean, the MG42 costs less, comes out wayyy earlier and can do what the .50 cal does even better. While the Pack howitzer is underperforming compared to the leig for example because of the crew required being 3 and the debuff they get which I think is a bug since all USF team weapon crews get it which makes them easier to kill off, that's why the suggestion of the mortar being added to them, that and the alternative to rifle rifle rifle opening.

As for Wehr, all they need is some balance love, and something which both Soviets and Wehrmacht lack, a forward retreat point and perhaps field repairs, Wehr more so than Sovs because the Soviets at least have 3 doctrinal options for repairing in the field which are present in most of their doctrines.

That's mostly it, I think we can pretty much guess most of the problems, and maybe you knew them and I'm just repeating myself or someone else but I just wanted to post this so the OP takes it into consideration of what each Army is "lacking" in it's core, sometimes severely.
1 Jun 2016, 21:52 PM
#17
avatar of TickTack

Posts: 578

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Jun 2016, 18:56 PMJunaid
Feedback on exactly how to integrate the Soviets would be helpful. Keep it coming. I'll parse the thread tomorrow, its extremely late in my timezone.

Use core armies only... no commanders. That creates an equal testing ground with all the other factions and ensures your results are valid.
1 Jun 2016, 22:49 PM
#18
avatar of Mistah_S

Posts: 851 | Subs: 1


It's a nice idea but the players should NOT use guards and shocks as these are NOT core units, do not try to justify their inclusion somehow. Just leave them out.

The core design does NOT depend on one or two commanders: i.e. those with Guards and Shocks, because that means that any other commanders are not designed to be used.


What he said.
Otherwise you better start using Jaegers/Commandos/OStruppen/Fallshims
1 Jun 2016, 23:32 PM
#19
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885



Soviets are lacking far more sadly, like an MG nest by default for example, a good medium tank, something which the current T-34/76 is not filling the role of and so forth.

OKW on the other hand is really only lacking an MG by default but that is an integral part of a core Army, no other Army in the history of CoH has only had a doctrinal MG which was not part of the core Army. And I don't really see how Obers, Sturms and Jaegers aren't "easily accesable" AI infantry, not to mention Falls, but then again I do agree that pretty much all of them are expensive (if you consider 300 man power for the Sturm's performance expensive) and 2 of them are doctrinal but still, Obers are Elite AI infantry while Sturms are good at doing whatever as long as you keep them safe and alive which is a bit hard to do since it's a 4 man squad compared to the British RE when upgraded.

UKF is only lacking a mobile in-direct fire weapon by default, which brings up the point you made which is very well put, that doctrines make these gaps manageable but still, paying fuel for something which is supposed to be there already... I just don't see the point, better to make the mortar pit a defensive position/emplacement which can garrison 2 mortars instead of having them spawn with/in it from the get go, just give them some sort of boost/bonus once inside with vet, like the vickers, instead of this immobile emplacement which everybody and their grandmothers are whining about, besides the bofors. And if you're asking if it's possible, yes, it is, I have done it because Svanh told me how, and I knew it was possible before since Europe at War, a very old and big mod for CoH that is centered around realism, has also done this, by using the mortar pit as an MG nest in which the MG can rotate a full 360 degrees to engine targets, like in a normal building.

The USF is lacking practical and well performing units on the other hand, at the current moment, their MG comes too late to be doing the job it should be doing, which is killing and suppressing infantry thus halting a blob/infantry advance because of some better light AT capabilities which are none-existent atm, I mean, the MG42 costs less, comes out wayyy earlier and can do what the .50 cal does even better. While the Pack howitzer is underperforming compared to the leig for example because of the crew required being 3 and the debuff they get which I think is a bug since all USF team weapon crews get it which makes them easier to kill off, that's why the suggestion of the mortar being added to them, that and the alternative to rifle rifle rifle opening.

As for Wehr, all they need is some balance love, and something which both Soviets and Wehrmacht lack, a forward retreat point and perhaps field repairs, Wehr more so than Sovs because the Soviets at least have 3 doctrinal options for repairing in the field which are present in most of their doctrines.

That's mostly it, I think we can pretty much guess most of the problems, and maybe you knew them and I'm just repeating myself or someone else but I just wanted to post this so the OP takes it into consideration of what each Army is "lacking" in it's core, sometimes severely.


I agree that soviets are lacking the most, especially good enough, spammable medium for the late game. T-34/76 crewmen - I'm looking at you, stop drinking before every shot or you will never kill anything.

As for okw, my whole post was, just like the thread, about non doctrinal units. So you are left with obers and these are available late and should be postponed even further.

I like the performance of usf in preview mod, don't think they need something else, same goes for wehr, apart from FRP maybe but this much bigger design issue.

I won't generally argue about ukf. The thing you are talking about is already in the game though as ostheer mortars can be put in trenches, or at least they could some time ago.


Use core armies only... no commanders. That creates an equal testing ground with all the other factions and ensures your results are valid.


Using commanders that are considered worst in a faction is an equal option too, why not go that way instead?
2 Jun 2016, 04:25 AM
#20
avatar of Tiger Baron

Posts: 3145 | Subs: 2



I agree that soviets are lacking the most, especially good enough, spammable medium for the late game. T-34/76 crewmen - I'm looking at you, stop drinking before every shot or you will never kill anything.

As for okw, my whole post was, just like the thread, about non doctrinal units. So you are left with obers and these are available late and should be postponed even further.

I like the performance of usf in preview mod, don't think they need something else, same goes for wehr, apart from FRP maybe but this much bigger design issue.

I won't generally argue about ukf. The thing you are talking about is already in the game though as ostheer mortars can be put in trenches, or at least they could some time ago.



Using commanders that are considered worst in a faction is an equal option too, why not go that way instead?


Yeah you can't anymore tho, no idea why they were removed the from the hold options. And considering Relic have put time and effort into the emplacement's model, it will once again be put to good use so no wssted assets that are already there. Plus, it turns out it's about as big as the trench model believe it or not, at least that's what I noticed when I was setting it up in a tight position.
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