Elephan, Tiger; Usleless
Posts: 99
The Tiger has less DPS than the P4. FULL STOP. I can continue point by point and say more about the Tiger but don't need to. Any conversation of the Tiger begins and ends with that statement. The Tiger does less DPS than a P4.
But let's go on... because it needs to be said. The Tiger has lots of armor; fine and well.... It's not speedy and not slow but adequate, handling 'feels right.' Turret rotation is slow, and that would be OK if the Tigers DPS was higher than a P4, but it isn't, so it's not OK. I can continue further and talk of how the Tank as it currently is has no real roll; it's not anti-tank and it's not anti-infantry and it isn't even an 'all-rounder' ....it's not really anything other than an expensive prop.
The Elephant almost never gets called-in because it's ultra expensive, for one, and two, a single T34 can zerg rush your defenses and render your nice toy wholly inoperable in an instant. The Elephant is just way too much of a liability. I don't build these and when I see teammates build them they get lost fast, and not for a lack of trying to adequately preserve it and use it correctly.
Of the Tiger and Elephant I only ever call the Tiger and that's only if I'm winning and want to win style points or have a laugh. And the Elephant I never call because it's simply too expensive for its current efficiency.
There isn't a single instance, as things are currently, that players wouldn't rather have several P4's or Panthers for the cost of a single Tiger Elephant.
For what it's worth, there are similar criticisms of the Soviet call-in's but those are different animals and should be left to their own thread. Also, none of these units (German or Russian) should be WTF PAWN machines.... but their cost should reflect what they are. And they currently don't.
Posts: 954
Tiger useless? Tried JS-2? You can go infantry-heavy and then get a Tiger call-in
Posts: 194
This is compounded by the fact that faust / AT nade instantly cripple them and, in the case of the Ost ones, ram can instantly take one out of the fight for the potential cost of a T34.
Bring the costs down a bit, up the range / damage / armor / something and they'll probably be fine.
Posts: 23
Yes the pz4 brings a better average dps to the table, but it's all about taking the target into consideration. Or more specifically what the job intended for the tiger is.
Given it's much higher amount of armor and hitpoints (which you really can't argue against) it is perfect for taking on for example SU-85s. Also against targets with a high enough armor the tiger will always deliver better dps than the pz4 (in theory). I would gladly expand the explanation on the matter, but I'm much too tired to do that right now.
TL;DR
While some marginal changes to some heavy vehicles would be welcome I'd argue that both the Tiger and Elefant have their specific roles based on their stats.
Posts: 60
Posts: 379
Posts: 1838 | Subs: 17
I also believe the current cost of the Elephant is justifiable because it basically counters all soviet armor if used correctly. It does cost 260 fuel but if you put 1 or two fuel cache's down mid game and have decent map control you should be able to get one out easily. If you're planning to get an Elephant out anyway then don't spend you fuel on other units.
Lastly about the Tiger tank I agree with you. It needs a serious buff as it comes too late to do anything and doesn't pay for itself. Currently even one SU-85 can give a Tiger a run for it's money =/.
Posts: 51
Posts: 2779
Elefant is NOT
Posts: 99
If you are losing your Elephant to t34's and their ram ability then you obviously haven't got it supported well enough.
If you are in a situation where you have your Elephant well enough defended for any scenario... then you're winning and probably don't need it. And if you need it, you probably don't have enough fuel. Bit of a Catch-22 in the current state.
And also, I've never actually seen the Elephant used in competitive play. Though you can educate me if I'm wrong.
One quick panzerfaust would stop that T34 easily.
We're all on the same page and understand basic tactics and gameplay mechanics. It goes without saying around here: support your units accordingly. That's the golden rule. This isn't a LTP issue. There may be a subset of players who use the Elephant for front line tactics and become bewildered why it dies so quickly. That's not us though. So there's no need to state the obvious. My contention with the Elephant however is this: A face-rush of one (or two) micro'ed T34's will get to your Elephant and take it out in an instant. An instant!
A microed T34 will make its way to your Elephant before your faust animation even begins, assuming you were even in range to get one off to begin with (probably not). It honestly doesn't take much effort, skill, nor luck to do this.
The Elephant is the biggest liability unit in the entire game. It would be one thing if the T34 died by one shot from the Elephant. That would at least be balance. But that's not the case. It takes two shots from an Elephant front-on, where 95% of your shots will be as you wont be 'flanking' with your Elephant.
Anyway, all of that said.... the Elephant is just too expensive for what it currently is.
Posts: 19
There's a reason it costs so much - It's a damned near win condition.
Posts: 2425
Permanently BannedPosts: 2561
Now hear me out. Of course the elephant can destroy T34s very well when kept at range, but why buy the most expensive and slow tank out there to do this. The t34 is a fast nimble tank and all it takes is one ram to make your elephant worthless and its too slow to dodge it at all. The pz4, panther, pak, even the stug can do the same at a much better cost and you can buy multiple of them for a single elephant.
Now you might be wondering then what is the Elephant good for if it doesn't destroy T34s. Well what about all those SU-85s that have been oh so popular lately. They blow up if even glanced at by the elephant. ISU, IS2 all countered by the elephant.
That being said I do believe all heavy tanks call ins are a bit too expensive at the moment, but the elephant is ,out of all of them, is closer to what it should be due to its insane armor and range making it nearly impossible to beat by conventional means in certain situations.
Posts: 19
But what I believe Hans was saying like any unit in this game it has to be supported, yes the Elefant is a powerful single unit, but it has it's weaknesses like every unit. you can't expect (good) players to throw a Elefant at you unguarded, you need P-Grens and the likes to defend it versus the T34 "Ram". Just like you need units after the T34 "Ram" to take it down.
Posts: 1838 | Subs: 17
Posts: 2425
Permanently BannedAlso very interesting would be some PaK43 replays!
Posts: 99
Posts: 952 | Subs: 1
The real strength of the Elefant, I think, is not in dealing with soviet tanks. It hard counters the SU-85 and ISU very well, something no other vehicle or structure in the Ostheer arsenal can do.
Posts: 99
Posts: 1021 | Subs: 1
but tiger is useless
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