Elephan, Tiger; Usleless

For what these two tanks offer, I would argue that their cost is so far and beyond what is reasonable it's insulting.

The Tiger has less DPS than the P4. FULL STOP. I can continue point by point and say more about the Tiger but don't need to. Any conversation of the Tiger begins and ends with that statement. The Tiger does less DPS than a P4.

But let's go on... because it needs to be said. The Tiger has lots of armor; fine and well.... It's not speedy and not slow but adequate, handling 'feels right.' Turret rotation is slow, and that would be OK if the Tigers DPS was higher than a P4, but it isn't, so it's not OK. I can continue further and talk of how the Tank as it currently is has no real roll; it's not anti-tank and it's not anti-infantry and it isn't even an 'all-rounder' ....it's not really anything other than an expensive prop.

The Elephant almost never gets called-in because it's ultra expensive, for one, and two, a single T34 can zerg rush your defenses and render your nice toy wholly inoperable in an instant. The Elephant is just way too much of a liability. I don't build these and when I see teammates build them they get lost fast, and not for a lack of trying to adequately preserve it and use it correctly.

Of the Tiger and Elephant I only ever call the Tiger and that's only if I'm winning and want to win style points or have a laugh. And the Elephant I never call because it's simply too expensive for its current efficiency.

There isn't a single instance, as things are currently, that players wouldn't rather have several P4's or Panthers for the cost of a single Tiger Elephant.

For what it's worth, there are similar criticisms of the Soviet call-in's but those are different animals and should be left to their own thread. Also, none of these units (German or Russian) should be WTF PAWN machines.... but their cost should reflect what they are. And they currently don't.

Elefant=end to every soviet armor, the problem is it comes late, but no armor can match the Elefant, it has cone sight+spotter scope combo, which is lame.

Tiger useless? Tried JS-2? You can go infantry-heavy and then get a Tiger call-in

All super tanks are relatively useless right now. IS-2 is the worst of the bunch and ISU-152 is the best, but they all cost way way too much for not much improvement (and in some cases worse) than non doctrinal units.

This is compounded by the fact that faust / AT nade instantly cripple them and, in the case of the Ost ones, ram can instantly take one out of the fight for the potential cost of a T34.

Bring the costs down a bit, up the range / damage / armor / something and they'll probably be fine.

While marginal increases for the heavy tanks would be appreciated it's really difficult to not make them instant game closers by buffing them.
Yes the pz4 brings a better average dps to the table, but it's all about taking the target into consideration. Or more specifically what the job intended for the tiger is.
Given it's much higher amount of armor and hitpoints (which you really can't argue against) it is perfect for taking on for example SU-85s. Also against targets with a high enough armor the tiger will always deliver better dps than the pz4 (in theory). I would gladly expand the explanation on the matter, but I'm much too tired to do that right now.

TL;DR
While some marginal changes to some heavy vehicles would be welcome I'd argue that both the Tiger and Elefant have their specific roles based on their stats.

Remember the Tiger Ace? 'Nuff said.

If you think the Elephant is useless you're doing it wrong.

Personally I fine the Elephant to be absolutely fine even in competitive 1v1s. If you are losing your Elephant to t34's and their ram ability then you obviously haven't got it supported well enough. One quick panzerfaust would stop that T34 easily. You've got to remember that the Elephant is not a front-line tank. You need to have it at the rear of your army and protected from enemy flanks. If you do this correctly you should be able to easily defeat your opponent.

I also believe the current cost of the Elephant is justifiable because it basically counters all soviet armor if used correctly. It does cost 260 fuel but if you put 1 or two fuel cache's down mid game and have decent map control you should be able to get one out easily. If you're planning to get an Elephant out anyway then don't spend you fuel on other units.

Lastly about the Tiger tank I agree with you. It needs a serious buff as it comes too late to do anything and doesn't pay for itself. Currently even one SU-85 can give a Tiger a run for it's money =/.

Elefant is fine. With spotting scope and cone sight it is extremely powerful, just needs to be supported. Tiger needs a buff though for sure.

Tiger is useless, right

Elefant is NOT

Everyone seems to agree on the Tiger. With regards to the Elephant; these are common arguments so let me address them.

If you are losing your Elephant to t34's and their ram ability then you obviously haven't got it supported well enough.

If you are in a situation where you have your Elephant well enough defended for any scenario... then you're winning and probably don't need it. And if you need it, you probably don't have enough fuel. Bit of a Catch-22 in the current state.

And also, I've never actually seen the Elephant used in competitive play. Though you can educate me if I'm wrong.

One quick panzerfaust would stop that T34 easily.

We're all on the same page and understand basic tactics and gameplay mechanics. It goes without saying around here: support your units accordingly. That's the golden rule. This isn't a LTP issue. There may be a subset of players who use the Elephant for front line tactics and become bewildered why it dies so quickly. That's not us though. So there's no need to state the obvious. My contention with the Elephant however is this: A face-rush of one (or two) micro'ed T34's will get to your Elephant and take it out in an instant. An instant!

A microed T34 will make its way to your Elephant before your faust animation even begins, assuming you were even in range to get one off to begin with (probably not). It honestly doesn't take much effort, skill, nor luck to do this.

The Elephant is the biggest liability unit in the entire game. It would be one thing if the T34 died by one shot from the Elephant. That would at least be balance. But that's not the case. It takes two shots from an Elephant front-on, where 95% of your shots will be as you wont be 'flanking' with your Elephant.

Anyway, all of that said.... the Elephant is just too expensive for what it currently is.

Elefant is hands down the best tank in the game.
There's a reason it costs so much - It's a damned near win condition.

If you can afford an Elephant, especially with that Doctrine, you won already a long time ago.

I believe that you are right about some prices issues there is something that I think you are overlooking. The elephant is not really a counter to T34s.

Now hear me out. Of course the elephant can destroy T34s very well when kept at range, but why buy the most expensive and slow tank out there to do this. The t34 is a fast nimble tank and all it takes is one ram to make your elephant worthless and its too slow to dodge it at all. The pz4, panther, pak, even the stug can do the same at a much better cost and you can buy multiple of them for a single elephant.

Now you might be wondering then what is the Elephant good for if it doesn't destroy T34s. Well what about all those SU-85s that have been oh so popular lately. They blow up if even glanced at by the elephant. ISU, IS2 all countered by the elephant.

That being said I do believe all heavy tanks call ins are a bit too expensive at the moment, but the elephant is ,out of all of them, is closer to what it should be due to its insane armor and range making it nearly impossible to beat by conventional means in certain situations.

I hear what everyone is saying about the T34 ram making the Elefant useless, but what we are talking about is the tank as a single unit. Now I imagine when people are saying "just ram it" they have a means of blowing the thing up after immobilized. Maybe you move up a flank attack with 85s or ZiS.

But what I believe Hans was saying like any unit in this game it has to be supported, yes the Elefant is a powerful single unit, but it has it's weaknesses like every unit. you can't expect (good) players to throw a Elefant at you unguarded, you need P-Grens and the likes to defend it versus the T34 "Ram". Just like you need units after the T34 "Ram" to take it down.

I wished I had saved my replays where my Elephant brought me back into the game now. If you guys would like I can proove to you how effective the Elephant is in competitive play if it gets to that stage by posting some replays here. I need to post some replays anyway for my strategy.

Would like that very much Hans!

Also very interesting would be some PaK43 replays!

Elephant is rarely used in competitive play for the single reason it's a gigantic liability. Fielding one is difficult due to cost, one, and two, it's vulnerable to a single T34 ram. And I don't care how well you think your Elephant is supported--macro'ing a speedy T34 to the Elephant for a ram is quite easy.

One grenadier squad near the Elefant would deal very nicely with a rammer.

The real strength of the Elefant, I think, is not in dealing with soviet tanks. It hard counters the SU-85 and ISU very well, something no other vehicle or structure in the Ostheer arsenal can do.

A microed T34 will make its way to your Elephant before your faust animation even begins, assuming you were even in range to get one off to begin with (probably not). It honestly doesn't take much effort, skill, nor luck to do this.

i had a game 10 minues ago, where a elephant saved my ass. prypjat winter map, my elephant was standing in the middle and looking over all of 3 vps, because its sight range is ridiculous. one elephant killed 3 su85s and 2 t34s.
but tiger is useless