SU-85; The Thread

Would you like a tank that is: the best anti-armor tank in the game; relatively cheap; very fast in both reverse, forward, and rotating; is a T4 unit fielded early (usually just as the German player goes T3); and is (somewhat) spammable; oh, and in addition to being the best non-doctrinal anti-tank tank in the game, it also snipes infantry with relative ease.

Would you like a tank that does all this? See the SU-85.

It boils down to this: SU-85 is a cheap non-doctrinal Elephant with less range, is much faster and comes with the added benefit of sniping infantry. Said another way, it is an Elephant with none of the drawbacks. It's ridiculous.

I don't want to 'take the Su-85 away' from the Soviet player. I truly don't. But when you have a tank in the game that's good against both infantry AND armor AND is fast AND comes early AND is cheap (for what it can do) AND is non-doctrinal then.... some thing or things need to change.

I have no problem with the SU-85 as it is now.

Edit: If you any change was made maybe take away focus sight - but at the moment I think it's probably fine.

Just make it need a spotter, drastically reduce reverse speed and accuracy while moving, and it wouldn't be such a difficult unit. The way it is it's easy for it to get itself into a bad position, and then fight it's way backwards out of it. Remember how the stug in vcoh was king of the battlefield for a few minutes(earliest cheapest tank)but it couldn't just go all nilly willy. If a m8 caught it in a bad position there wasn't any speed reversing high accuracy shooting. It made a bad choice, it was now dead. The Su 85s has all the benefits of a long range turretless tank destroyer with none of the drawbacks.


Or do one thing make it not able to shoot at all while driving backwards.

Just make it need a spotter, drastically reduce reverse speed and accuracy while moving, and it wouldn't be such a difficult unit. The way it is it's easy for it to get itself into a bad position, and then fight it's way backwards out of it. Remember how the stug in vcoh was king of the battlefield for a few minutes(earliest cheapest tank)but it couldn't just go all nilly willy. If a m8 caught it in a bad position there wasn't any speed reversing high accuracy shooting. It made a bad choice, it was now dead. The Su 85s has all the benefits of a long range turretless tank destroyer with none of the drawbacks.

this is exactly what we need. maybe make forward vision a vet 1 ability. which wouldnt be near a scary once the turning/reverse speed/movement accuarcy are lowered

If I could do any ONE thing to adjust--and there's allot that can be done, many different ways to bring balance--would be to: Lower the rotating speed and reverse speed (I'd even leave forward speed as is) to allow a higher success rate for flanks of this tank.

I would also remove the infantry sniping. That honestly feels out of whack.

I would do those things... but I still feel it comes too early.

reload lower from 4 to 6

Pretty sure somewhere I've got a video of two SU-85's point blank shooting at one idle sniper and missing 8 times. How about just no to all of this.

I've got a better idea, just remove all tanks and infantry from Soviet and change the Army name to Poland so it'll just be Ostheer vs Civilians. Sounds like a fun game.

I think cone sight being vet 1 is a great idea.

so does elefant

It is a Marder 3 with StuG IV armor

Would you like a tank that is: the best anti-armor tank in the game; relatively cheap; very fast in both reverse, forward, and rotating...

Really?? The SU-85 rotates too fast. It's turret has about 8 degrees of rotation and it turns like it's in quicksand.

Real quicksand-speed rotation is an Elephant. The SU-85 is a world apart. Quick turning while retaining much of the Elephants utility.

The su-85 is not OP for the following reasons
1. It is very squishy.
2. Contrary to popular believe, it does not kill infantry. I dont know what game youre playing but it is simply god awful vs infantry units.
3. Can be out manuevered with proper micro, making it a sitting duck.
4.Panzershrecks, Panzershrecks, oh and Panzershrecks.

Without this unit the Russians would get stomped by German armor pretty much every game. And to the people saying it negates the elephant, lol. Elephant is 10x as tanky (as it should be) outranges the su-85(huge deal), and does a lot more damage. I dont even know why theses tanks are being compared.

Who said the SU-85 negates the Elephant? No one. No one's making that argument.
However, the SU-85 is indeed a cheap, non doctrinal, spammable, faster Elephant.

And it does snipe infantry, regularly.

No it doesnt.

Imo SU85s problem is primarily its reverse speed and accuracy when reversing.

Possibly rotates just alittle bit too fast as well.

you people complaining about su-85 sniping infantry and rotating too fast should just limit yourself to playing vs ai. Clearly you do not understand this game enough to see the su-85's many weaknesses like:
-panzershreks
-flanking it, because its rotating speed is crap.
The only good thing about SU-85 is it's range and dmg vs VEHICLES if approached heads on. Learn to flank really

Nice insults.

How about you go away.

SU-85 does not deserve a nerf for what I see in 1v1.

• Their non rotating turret can be exploited. How does the vehicle rotate to fast? You can easily circle it with any rotating turret German armour including P4, Panther, Ostwind, AC or just out range it with an Elephant.
  
• If you can't get a flank on it and if its unsupported by conscripts/guards, use mortar smoke or smoke bombs (doctrinal) and charge head on into it, then procede to circle strafe it.
  
• Shreck it.
  
• Mess with the SU-85 target priorty. Get it to see an infantry squad, force it to rotate and then move in your P4/Panther from the direction it is no longer facing.
  

There are so many ways to counter it I don't get it why the majority of people call for a nerf. In 2v2 it may be different story I don't know, but 1v1 it seems like a fair unit. If SU-85 are unsupported from Guards or Conscripts they are so vulnerable. Knock out that support and you have free entry.

Yes, it does have the potential to snipe down infantry squad members and deal well with tanks. However the P4 murders infantry and has the potential to take out a SU85. It is about micro and unit positioning in the end. Break an element of the Soviet combined arms and the SU-85 falls or is forced to back out.

Well microed and positioned Conscripts, Guards, Snipers and SU-85 is a formidable army though. The key I use when facing such an army is to know exactly where the SU-85 is at all times. Listen in the fog of war before sending a tank to that region. Keep 1-2 pioneers following that tank around the map incase there is a quick single AT nade ambush and guide with Grens where possible. You know that SU-85 will be on the way if an AT nade lands. Get your P4's and Ostwinds to do a lot of damage where you know the SU-85 isn't, overextend their infantry where possible and try find the wholes in the support to get to that SU-85. Still can't get that hole to emerge but still have a decent amount of VP's? Preserve that manpower and use a pak43 or howizter to break the lines. Yes its doctrinal but 1 of these are generally in the most useful Ostheer doctrines, but otherwise I pop out a sniper to force the Russian to be aggressive. Snipers will bleed them down fast if your targeting the Guards.

Stephennnnnnnnn is very smart MVGame