How do you use Tommies? (request for replays)

I have a challenge for the readers of this sub-forum.

Suppose you do NOT want to build ANY emplacements (no pit/bofors). Also suppose that you have no access to bullshit DLC commander abilities (i.e., no land mattress, counter-battery or Vanguard officer charge).

Show me the best usage of Tommies you have ever seen in a replay (top-tier game)
- vs OST
- vs OKW

(Current patch. I prefer aggressive style of playing. Ideally, 2v2 and above, but any replay will work).

The requirements are:
- The player has fielded at least 3 Tommies at the same time (Tank Hunters don't count!)
- At most one Sniper present at the same time
- The number of Tommy squads fielded had a positive impact on the player's game.

Basically, try your best to convince me that:
- Other units would not perform better than Tommies for the given role (e.g., Vickers, Sappers, Snipers)
- Tommies are worth their current price-tag for the combination of utility/combat they offer.

I know the post sounds a bit negativist, but I'm really trying to explore what is the best I should expect from Tommies:
- Hold-out infantry against tanks?
- Digging in/being annoying to uproot?
- Crazy-good late-game-scaling terminators?
- Or just weapon-pinatas only useful for their medkits?

I don't really build emplacements

2-3 sections is the soft spot for me depending on the map, I never have more than three for sure as the upkeep and squad costs just kill you.

It's not just the squad upkeep but also the investment in upgrades to keep them relevant 450mp+fuel for grenades/brens/5man on top of four 280 squads will just leave you with no resources to adapt to anything like double 222 or luch.

You want to be aggressive? then mix in some light vehicles and a sniper, vickers is also pretty good on offense with its DPS. Tommy spam does not offer much and is not the answer imo

Show Spoiler

In general though tommies and trenches are still pretty important, see replay related for the importance of the latter that allowed me to hold my territory and win engagements early game

https://www.coh2.org/replay/52849/rollo-vs-hoi

I never get more than 2 IS. I get Sappers instead because they are cheaper and allow me to repair my vehicles quicky. I prefer to use my IS for holding ground. Build trenches for my Vickers, stay in green cover will make them so much stronger. Their medpacks allow them to stay on the field for a long time. Honestly, I almost always build a mortar pit. Its too good not to get. Its a good combo with IS who can stall 2 other squads in cover while the mortar does the real damage.

I know its not really what you asked but I dont see tommies as main infantry as volks for example. Need to combine them with other units.

I will upload one later.

Mortar pits and snipers are essential for a heavy tommy build.There is no way around them,also a croc after your first comet can turn the tide if used well.Else you are too unflexible and your tactic can easily be exploited.

You will need to adapt at some point.

I don't really build emplacements

2-3 sections is the soft spot for me depending on the map, I never have more than three for sure as the upkeep and squad costs just kill you.

It's not just the squad upkeep but also the investment in upgrades to keep them relevant 450mp+fuel for grenades/brens/5man on top of four 280 squads will just leave you with no resources to adapt to anything like double 222 or luch.

You want to be aggressive? then mix in some light vehicles and a sniper, vickers is also pretty good on offense with its DPS. Tommy spam does not offer much and is not the answer imo

Show Spoiler

In general though tommies and trenches are still pretty important, see replay related for the importance of the latter that allowed me to hold my territory and win engagements early game

https://www.coh2.org/replay/52849/rollo-vs-hoi

I watched it, and it was interesting!
Show Spoiler

However, apart from their trench-building utility, it didn't seem that this matchup ever allowed you to use Tommies anywhere close to the potential implied by their price-tag. In that game, having any less or any more than 2 Tommies would have led to the disaster (either not enough trench-building presence, or too many units being inept in the mid-late game).

I will upload one later.

Mortar pits and snipers are essential for a heavy tommy build.There is no way around them,also a croc after your first comet can turn the tide if used well.Else you are too unflexible and your tactic can easily be exploited.

You will need to adapt at some point.

I would be very keen on seeing this one!

Having at least one sniper seems like a necessity for an aggressive build, no matter what. Getting 2 or more Snipers would make me question what you need Tommies for, in the first place.

It seems is very difficult to make aggressive moves with mainline infantry without any form of fire support. Doubly so with Tommies who lack decent garrison clearing / DPS-on-the-move. The best workaround I have found so far is use the UC as a platform for grenade-totting Tommies.

The problem with Brits is that if you need early indirect fire, you are locked into a Mortar Pit. My preconception about emplacement play is that the Mortar Pit synergises better with emplacement spam than it would ever do with Tommies (thus, lulling you into static playing). However, I would love to be proven wrong!

Why not. I'll take up that challenge and try to get a decent replay.

Why not. I'll take up that challenge and try to get a decent replay.

You can always link to somebody else's replay! This is supposed to be uhm.. educational; not necessarily a challenge.

Hey sry took a bit longer.

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  0

  VS

  Lord Bingham

  Don'tKnow

  IS heavy play

  by: Don'tKnow map: Kholodny Ferma

  1

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  1

  VS

  Finndeed

  Don'tKnow

  IS heavy play

  by: Don'tKnow map: La Gleize Breakout

  1

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I would really advice use to wait for the June patch to make this work properly.Currently it just takes too much effort to fight OKW with a build like this.Against OH it works really fine.

Main problem: AEC is a waste of resources because of shreks and raketen which then forces you to go for a pak and sniper.However a luchs can just wait behind a corner to lure you into a bad position.

Unfortunately you need to pick dlc commanders,if you dont you will probably lose.Standard commanders lack heavy tanks or other offmap abilities that could grant victory.

Tips: Snipers,brens and fast teching is the key to be successful.Maybe a occasional mortar pit to support your IS against heavy support weapon play.Last but not least if you dont like the typical brit playstyle(nasty hmg,sniper,centaur(cromwell),vanguard,matress,...) dont play them this patch

Kind of curious - would earlier bolster sections help this cause? Personally I don't see early bolstering all that often (if its not skipped entirely) but one would think that early 5 man squads would give you an advantage over non-vetted Axis counterparts - especially if you have several squads that can benefit from it. Coupled with early Brens (Bolster + Weapon Racks would be your typical Bofors fuel) it wouldn't delay your Cromwell teching any.

You'd still be pretty reliant on mines and 6 pounders if you opponent goes 444 or Luches though (might need AEC if you don't get enough fuel harassment)

This is a match I played against Kryptic shows a pretty good usage of Tommies IMO. Though getting out the 5 men upgrade after building T1 is very good and critical because you force yourself to going AEC.

Thanks for all the tips and the videos!

So far my takeaways from these videos/replays are that:
- Garrison play is key, as it allows Tommies to retain their cover even when the enemy walks up against the garrison (where Tommy DPS is lackluster).
- Tommy-healing forces the enemy to actually commit a force to uproot Tommies.
- Mortars don't work, as Tommies can pop in and out (MGs are too slow), and can also heal.
- Lee Enfields are OK (they don't care too much about cover penalty or the Vet3 bug, and you also save munitions)

I would really advice use to wait for the June patch to make this work properly.Currently it just takes too much effort to fight OKW with a build like this.Against OH it works really fine.

Is this about the starting manpower disparity between OKW and UKF, or is this about the Second Coming of the kubeljesus?

Main problem: AEC is a waste of resources because of shreks and raketen which then forces you to go for a pak and sniper.However a luchs can just wait behind a corner to lure you into a bad position.

About the AEC, I would say this is very very map-dependent. In 1v1 garrison-infested maps, I would say it's not really useful (since it doesn't give you the tools to do anything, except for being a passive counter unit). However, anything more open, and you get the following benefits:
- Immense sight radius
- If you get it to Vet1, you get the 2nd most underrated tank destroyer in the game (capable of disabling just about any tank).
- Great screening unit for Fireflies (which is another tank you won't see in 1v1).

The main issue with the AEC is that it has an initial window of usefulness (e.g., deterring Luchs, 444 rush), then a long lull of uselessness (only there to provide vet to schreck Volks)... until the big cats come out. In bigger modes, that lull becomes significantly smaller, and thus you don't lose much. At the same time you gain a superb trading unit.

However, if you AEC hasn't reached Vet1 by that point, it never will (you need penetrating hits to accumulate veterancy, and you can't get this with this combination of low pen/bad turret traverse/short range/low HP).

Unfortunately you need to pick dlc commanders,if you dont you will probably lose.Standard commanders lack heavy tanks or other offmap abilities that could grant victory.

Tips: Snipers,brens and fast teching is the key to be successful.Maybe a occasional mortar pit to support your IS against heavy support weapon play.Last but not least if you dont like the typical brit playstyle(nasty hmg,sniper,centaur(cromwell),vanguard,matress,...) dont play them this patch

Of course, anything to support the ISes would really help. However, I was just wondering what should be the limit of my expectations from that unit. From there on, mix-and-matching will have to do!

Great analysis and summary!

That still leaves one questions unanswered: Do I rebuild Tommies (with LMG) once I lose them or do I build Pios with LMGs?

Especially when I play with US who has an ambulance I don't really need the healing. Having one Tommy for increased vision is good of course...

Great analysis and summary!

That still leaves one questions unanswered: Do I rebuild Tommies (with LMG) once I lose them or do I build Pios with LMGs?

Especially when I play with US who has an ambulance I don't really need the healing. Having one Tommy for increased vision is good of course...

2 Healing Tommies are indispensible, even if you plan on blobbing your entire army together. That's mainly because you will always have a medkit that is not on cooldown.

However, I prefer replacing Tommies with heavy sappers. If you get a vet0 Sapper squad, research minesweepers and the Vickers_K upgrade, your vet0 squad can down a vet3 LMG gren. Don't ever bother giving extra LMGs to your sappers, it's really not worth it (Sapper squad formation is too tight. Also, your Stens will help if the enemy decides they have had it with your Vickers_k and start closing in too early). Even if you lose your sapper, you will have lost very little (70 munitions). Also, the only way to lose sappers is explosives, which cost munitions (thus you bleed your opponent any more).

Heavy Sappers have the Osttruppen effect: Cheap, durable, and you don't have to bother about winning fights (although you will be winning some of them, anyway). Just let your enemy worry about dislodging your Sappers instead (even if you are fighting a losing fight, it will take a long time for the enemy, anyway). Watch out for artillery and nades, though.

However, I prefer replacing Tommies with heavy sappers. If you get a vet0 Sapper squad, research minesweepers and the Vickers_K upgrade

You're getting the minesweeper for the mines only? Or does it affect the squad/accuracy/dps as well?

Don't you lose a weapon because you replace it with a sweeper?

You're getting the minesweeper for the mines only? Or does it affect the squad/accuracy/dps as well?

Don't you lose a weapon because you replace it with a sweeper?

You only lose a Sten (but you need minesweepering anyway though)

The thing about the minesweeper + vickers is that there is a bug (!!!). At Vet3 the two upgrades become mutualy exclussive (i.e., you can only have one of them). This means if you decide to skip going for both of them early on, you will lose that opportunity when you hit Vet3.