Why Ostheer is currently not much fun in my opinion

i rekt you second game totaly in a macro game. In first i was in better spot. But little room for mistakes 1 rushed vehicle lost = lost game.

Ok

So me and many others in this thread who are not pros because we play this game for fun and maybe not for the cheese simply need to l2p?

So every CoH2 player except the mentioned 200 people should have a lot less fun playing Ostheer than other factions? Yes, players have mentioned the counters but still a major part of the players think that Ostheer has little to no room for mistakes whereas other factions don't come even close to the playing pressure while performing better.

Even if "l2p" is the case, it's simply frustrating the "not-so-skilled" players like me and about 80% of the rest.

But you are not really better with any other faction, so why do you feel Ostheer being underpowered compared to the other?
I don't really want to judge you but I'm around same rank as you with Ostheer 1vs1 while my gameplay is terrible with this faction. I have no BO and little control on it but still around same level, my room for improvement with Ostheer is really huge and not only depending on quickness to react and map awareness like for my USF rank where I know perfectly the gameplay of the faction.

If you are the Highfive sometimes casted by Imperialdane and others casters, yes you do a lot of mistakes, have sometime high time to react over the battlefield and too much time you are sending your units to death for nothing (especially tanks). And this with all the factions I have seen you play with, and you cannot really argue that it cause you greatest troubles with Ostheer since it remains your best faction play.

i rekt you second game totaly in a macro game. In first i was in better spot. But little room for mistakes 1 rushed vehicle lost = lost game.

aaa:"ok do I spam riflemen with the hotkey or with the mouse I know I can keep looking at other unit with the hotkey but how do I drink my Mountain Dew or eat my Doritos?" #importantmacrochoise cit-the janitor

My biggest issue of the faction is how heavily it relies on the sniper in the early-mid game and even the late game against USF and Brits.

They're mediocre without the sniper unless you're on a very favorable map and then there's 'Not Fun to Fight' when they do field the sniper but it's a necessary evil to effectively bleed the enemy. It's kind of their only way to push against entrenched infantry early on without mortars as Grenadiers are too fragile to charge/assault ground while the rest of the army is made up of support weapons.

Without a sniper, you really need your opponent to make mistakes rather then frustrating them with snipers to the point where they do make mistakes trying to kill the sniper.

initial post text

I haven't play OH since a while I have to admit except 1 or 2 2v2s but I feel you. Problems became to arise since lowering of PAK40 ROF. There are many inconvenients:
- To have an efficient AT defense early game, you need 2 PAKs if you don't upgrade to shrecks.
- To help your fragile grens you will need mortar/mg support.
- To have all above means you are already cornered.

From my middling player experience I can only say that what I prefer for early game at list as the best AT solution OH can field, are shreck PZgrens. I know, the investment means alot but it worth saving amo for it, this is somewhat proven at my level. The idea is how to resist without spending money for lmgs, mines even flamers for pios until then, that is a tricky one. For 1v1 building caches is not realy an option except you have an opponent who let you breath from time to time; for 2v2s the first cache for OH will be amo, not fuel and I allways have 2 PZgren unit.
For me and my micro level, they have advantages than no other AT or light AT solution has:
1. They can't be flanked;
2. They can't be decrewed;
3. They can be withdrawn and refit and make it through the game until the end of it in many cases;
4. They don't cost fuel;

The only thing you have to pay attention to, is not to lose the squad / squads. It happens some times to me, but I am not that good at unit preservation especialy in OH's case.

Hope that helped...

1 If I have to decide what should I get betwen risky teller or LMG to deal with powerfull amove infantiere, conlusion is easy


2 Yes, at top 1000. Really it good example for countering light vehicles? Furthermore, you need T1 and almost every infantry has that.


3 It's not that cheap, 210MP is quite big for unit without any armor.


4 Urban maps? Hmm, I think there is actually two or even one...


5 PaK is very good against heavies, terrible against light with his aim time. Need at least two which is heavy investment


6 In most cases, you are forced to play something with Ace or Tiger, won't work. Also, 250 is too expencive to do fancy thigs like that.

1: If the enemy is going for a light vehicle rush, you don't need to deck your army out with LMGs ASAP. With your standard grens and MG42 you can fight of conscripts just fine, unupgraded Tommies and Rifles just fine. If the enemy is going for weapon upgrades and grenades first, their light vehicle will be delayed significantly. Also it's not like you'll be facing 3x double BAR grenade flinging rifles at the 8 minute mark while you would be having to decide whether to buy your first LMG or getting a teller mine.

2: Who said it would have to be the only counter? It's part of Ostheers repertoire to have Panzerfausts available pretty much from the start. Unlike.. Oh I don't know... every other factions? Soviets have to dump resources into side tech, Rifles need to vet up, Tommies don't even have snares.

3: 10 mp and 15 fuel more than a Osttruppen squad is cheap. "no armor" is a load of crap. It does not have a lot of armor, but you are not going to lose half your hitpoints from fighting a tommie squad.

4: La gleize Breakout, semoisky summer, semoisky winter, arnhem checkpoint. They are also fine on semi-urban maps with a decent mix of shotblocker and buildings such as Kholodney Ferma.

5: Saying you need two PAKs to counter a light vehicle is like saying you need 4 snipers to counter a HMG42. "X countering Y" does not mean "X killing Y the moment it enters line of sight". "Countering" in most cases just means fending off. If you are having so much trouble defending against an enemy light that you need 2 PAKs, you might have to evaluate how you were using your first PAK40 in the first place.

6: If you need a tiger ace to counter enemy lights then I just don't know what to say.

But you are not really better with any other faction, so why do you feel Ostheer being underpowered compared to the other?
I don't really want to judge you but I'm around same rank as you with Ostheer 1vs1 while my gameplay is terrible with this faction.

I know I'm statswise not better, but I lose as OKW because of other reasons. As OKW I lose because I made obvious mistakes, lose squads or bad micro.

As Ostheer I'm really microing like a SC II player but you get so little reward and so much punishment for small mistakes.

My biggest issue of the faction is how heavily it relies on the sniper in the early-mid game and even the late game against USF and Brits.

They're mediocre without the sniper unless you're on a very favorable map and then there's 'Not Fun to Fight' when they do field the sniper but it's a necessary evil to effectively bleed the enemy. It's kind of their only way to push against entrenched infantry early on without mortars as Grenadiers are too fragile to charge/assault ground while the rest of the army is made up of support weapons.

Without a sniper, you really need your opponent to make mistakes rather then frustrating them with snipers to the point where they do make mistakes trying to kill the sniper.

This is also what I experienced. I tend to start with MG -> Sniper -> Grens. The sniper reduces OH capping power drastically while you need to cap with your MG (which has a bugged cap order) and the Pio which loses all fights but against Engineers.

The micro amount of the Ostheer early game is insane. If you lose your sniper before minute 5, you can simply leave because you cannot compensate that loss without hoping that your enemy does a stupid mistake.

My biggest issue of the faction is how heavily it relies on the sniper in the early-mid game and even the late game against USF and Brits.

They're mediocre without the sniper unless you're on a very favorable map and then there's 'Not Fun to Fight' when they do field the sniper but it's a necessary evil to effectively bleed the enemy. It's kind of their only way to push against entrenched infantry early on without mortars as Grenadiers are too fragile to charge/assault ground while the rest of the army is made up of support weapons.

Without a sniper, you really need your opponent to make mistakes rather then frustrating them with snipers to the point where they do make mistakes trying to kill the sniper.

Agreed, problem here is if you buff gren, you'll break the fragile balance with the support weapon and sniper combo.

I know I'm statswise not better, but I lose as OKW because of other reasons. As OKW I lose because I made obvious mistakes, lose squads or bad micro.

As Ostheer I'm really microing like a SC II player but you get so little reward and so much punishment for small mistakes.



This is also what I experienced. I tend to start with MG -> Sniper -> Grens. The sniper reduces OH capping power drastically while you need to cap with your MG (which has a bugged cap order) and the Pio which loses all fights but against Engineers.

The micro amount of the Ostheer early game is insane. If you lose your sniper before minute 5, you can simply leave because you cannot compensate that loss without hoping that your enemy does a stupid mistake.

here is maybe the issue, sniper 3rd unit is a call to light armor counter. If I see a sniper as USF that early = or I manage to conceal it and avoid bleed = keep going T2 or T1 AAHT or he micro it well (or has rngjesus on his side) and I go T1 M20 and manage a good flank and pray rngjesus to stay out of the fight.

So why don't you build 2xHMG to cover your fuel/cutoff/munition, 222/pak as support and then instead of your first pzgren build a sniper. It is much safer and you have more room to micro it and bleed your opponent.
Hell, at this level, you can go 3xPio+2xHMG to keep your ground, fast T2, fast 2x222 and pzgren. It works well vs majority of players with little micro requirement.

The funny thing is that related to balance preview patch manny people are scared by / not happy with new OKW changes and many times the argument they bring to the table is: "yes but why must OKW have this and that, look, OStheer doesn't, and therefore OKW shouldn't have it eather". That is a snicky one. If a faction underperforms, this is not a reason to bring in line with it some other faction that has a chance to be good and have the proper tools. For instance why SPs must have shrecks while OH cannot gain access to them before Tier 2 and without investing ALOT of amo.
My point: if OH curren tly kinda sucks in terms of efficiency why make OKW suck too? Better make OH playable.

My thought: who can play and not lose to much with OH these days is a COH2 god.

IMO Ostheer is CoH2 Multiplayer Hard mode. While you can lose some models without any further problems as USF/Soviets, Ostheer is bleeding out immediately. (Not talking about Osttruppen commander as it is not available for everyone)

The only thing coming close to this is UKF that has much better inf in cover, much better MGs, double LMGs and a light tank. I don't see any cons for the Brits except a sniper that arrives later and immobile Mortars.

The main inf is better and also gets great LMGs, the engineers are better than pioneers. A Vickers will win against a MG42 with usually 4 to 0 models in a building fight, the mortar fires double rounds and the Bofors is Satan himself. Even PIATs are pretty good right now when blobbed, which is no problem as UKF. The Cromwell is a better P4 and crushes like the fist of God himself. Comet is only a bit worse than a Tiger.

For me UKF = a better Allied Ostheer.

I know I am an Axis fanboy but I don't see the sense in buffing Allied late game without any Ostheer compensation.

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I clicked all of these spoilers and I don't know why I did it.

IMO Ostheer is CoH2 Multiplayer Hard mode. While you can lose some models without any further problems as USF/Soviets, Ostheer is bleeding out immediately. (Not talking about Osttruppen commander as it is not available for everyone)

But we still love OH regardless. The announcer's voice too sexy.

I clicked all of these spoilers and I don't know why I did it.

Just click on reply, it is like cheat mode

The only thing coming close to this is UKF that has much better inf in cover, much better MGs, double LMGs and a light tank. I don't see any cons for the Brits except a sniper that arrives later and immobile Mortars.

The main inf is better and also gets great LMGs, the engineers are better than pioneers. A Vickers will win against a MG42 with usually 4 to 0 models in a building fight, the mortar fires double rounds and the Bofors is Satan himself. Even PIATs are pretty good right now when blobbed, which is no problem as UKF. The Cromwell is a better P4 and crushes like the first of God himself. Centaur is only a bit worse than a Tiger.

For me UKF = a better Allied Ostheer.

I know I am an Axis fanboy but I don't see the sense in buffing Allied late game without any Ostheer compensation.

In general, UKF has units that are situationally better than Ostheer ones.

- Tommies may be better than Grenadiers but they're also more expensive and rely on being stationary and in cover. A Tommy has 83/128% (min/max range) of a Grenadier's DPS in cover and takes roughly 88% of the damage from small arms fire (without their cover bonus).

- In addition, Bren long-range DPS is worse than Grenadier LMG-42 long-range DPS both absolutely and as a percentage increase in squad DPS (Brens increase Tommy squad DPS by ~43% while LMG-42s increase Gren squad DPS by ~77%) meaning Tommies pay the same amount for less. This isn't a call to buff Brens, it's simply pointing out that Tommies don't benefit from LMGs quite as efficiently.

- The Vickers wins in building fights because it simply has more DPS and the MG-42's greater suppression never comes into play.

- The Mortar Pit mortars have more DPS than an Ostheer mortar together but have less individually while costing 5/3s as much. Two Ostheer mortars also have more tactical flexibility.

- The Bofors could do with a health reduction and a range reduction on its barrage.

- PIATs could do with having their scatter removed, maybe accompanied by a cost increase. The current scatter values make it better to use attack-ground than an attack command (unintuitive micro for micro's sake).

- The Cromwell definitely needs a cost increase and a possible reduction in crushing ability.

- I don't quite understand the Tiger/Centaur comparison.

In general, I'm not a fan of balancing for early/mid/late game advantages because (depending on teching speed) one timing will always be better than the others.

I think Ostheer could be improved with a little more attention to infantry veterancy (improve medkits, give Panzergrenadiers part of their received accuracy bonus at vet 1 etc.) and teching costs but their unit roster isn't the problem.

My biggest issue of the faction is how heavily it relies on the sniper in the early-mid game and even the late game against USF and Brits.

They're mediocre without the sniper unless you're on a very favorable map and then there's 'Not Fun to Fight' when they do field the sniper but it's a necessary evil to effectively bleed the enemy. It's kind of their only way to push against entrenched infantry early on without mortars as Grenadiers are too fragile to charge/assault ground while the rest of the army is made up of support weapons.

Without a sniper, you really need your opponent to make mistakes rather then frustrating them with snipers to the point where they do make mistakes trying to kill the sniper.

Exactly. I think a slight buff to grens received accuracy would solve this by making ostheer less reliant on the sniper and support units in general. Maybe something small like 5% would be good, Miragefla make it happen!

I clicked all of these spoilers and I don't know why I did it.

Who knows.

Have a price

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Regarding ost, well, they are designed to rely on supporting units.
Grenspam was killed for a reason-faction with bradest access to support weapons and units can not have infantry that is potent enough to NOT rely on them.

You can't buff grens, because we'll be back at cancerous grenspam meta instantly, you can't buff support weapons, because they are already #1 in the game.

Just get to T2 asap, get 251/222 and use that.

Ost early game isn't about aggression, but not losing your part of the map to me.
Ost doesn't really dictate pace of the game early, but responds to it, for this reason I believe people don't find it that fun.

Ost early game isn't about aggression, but not losing your part of the map to me. Ost doesn't really dictate pace of the game early, but responds to it, for this reason I believe people don't find it that fun.

As I stated earlier: That was the initial design behind Ostheer. But now the lategame is mediocre at best. There is no punch in Ostheer armor. Now you lump behind early only to be on par lategame.

Highfive pointed it out: Everything Ostheer does, the Brits do better.

- I don't quite understand the Tiger/Centaur comparison.

Sorry I meant the Comet, not the Centaur, fixed it in my original post

The only thing coming close to this is UKF that has much better inf in cover, much better MGs, double LMGs and a light tank. I don't see any cons for the Brits except a sniper that arrives later and immobile Mortars.

For me UKF = a better Allied Ostheer.

I know I am an Axis fanboy but I don't see the sense in buffing Allied late game without any Ostheer compensation.

come on man, brits have to pay out the ass for half the things you listed (bren unlock, AEC unlock, grenade unlock, 5men) and even then there are core things missing that Ost have (AT grenade, rocket arty and flamers).

bugs that just make UKF units meh (looking at you bren drops at vet3+buggy AEC/Cromwell/Comet abilities, ground attack through smoke still not working at times) where as the teller bug is the only thing I can think of that effects me as Ost each game.

Then you have a lot more limiting doctrines than Ost, that's really where they shine IMO being able to shit out a command PIV/Puma/Tiger when they need to adapt to something.

Ost early game isn't about aggression, but not losing your part of the map to me.
Ost doesn't really dictate pace of the game early, but responds to it, for this reason I believe people don't find it that fun.

This sounds nicely in theory but I would like to see you doing that against an equally skilled oponnent and win 50% of times.
What you described above = losing initiative early game and still trying to win. Good luck with that.