Jagdtiger Balance for 3v3+

^ under priced what ? They up the the price of everything apart for ST

Basically, the only other unit I included was the Command Panther (and the Jagtiger). It is cheaper now than what it used to be pre-revamp. Also, its abilities are dirt cheap (especially now that you don't need to transform munitions to fuel to actually afford tanks).

Generally speaking, it is possible to nerf something, and have that thing overperform even post-nerf. Case in point? Artillery Cover; it took two nerfs to have it reach the current state.

Basically, the only other unit I included was the Command Panther (and the Jagtiger). It is cheaper now than what it used to be pre-revamp. Also, its abilities are dirt cheap (especially now that you don't need to transform munitions to fuel to actually afford tanks).

Generally speaking, it is possible to nerf something, and have that thing overperform even post-nerf. Case in point? Artillery Cover; it took two nerfs to have it reach the current state.

Still don't understand this "op ability" the piercing shoot need you to attack ground and is not an aimbot 1/5 will it where you want and the target can move
The support art is op only in certain situations like the terrain is completely flat but yea dat ability might need to be changed like a 100 mun shoot 1 once big explosion but can pass trought terrain with 85 range

Still don't understand this "op ability" the piercing shoot need you to attack ground and is not an aimbot 1/5 will it where you want and the target can move

Wrong, you can right click the target as long as you have LOS on it with any other unit.

Still don't understand this "op ability" the piercing shoot need you to attack ground and is not an aimbot 1/5 will it where you want and the target can move
The support art is op only in certain situations like the terrain is completely flat but yea dat ability might need to be changed like a 100 mun shoot 1 once big explosion but can pass trought terrain with 85 range

Apologies, I got a bit confused by your original reply.

I claimed that the the JT, the Command Panther and the Sturmtiger feel underpriced.
- The Sturmtiger performs vastly better than similar units (AVRE) for the same price (neither unit fits the "squad preservation" theme of CoH2 very well, but whatever)
- The Command Panther has abilities that are significantly better and/or cheaper than similar abilities of other factions (OKW Combat Blitz is OST Blitzkrieg on steroids; 35 Munitions Coordinated Fire). That's a Relic from the pre-revamp days, when OKW could choose between Fuel or Munitions but not both.
- The JT costs way too little resources (esp Manpower) for something that wants to be an Elefant that is more durable, have better range, and also retain AI capabilities.

Now, I don't know what the price of these units should be. For instance, we don't know if Relic decides to introduce global upgrades on OKW or something else that will limit the availability of these units.

The Jagdtiger somewhat defines the issue with super-units. It's extremely expensive and also extremely powerful but it has obvious counters and a gimmicky weakness making it very map- and mode-dependent.

Part of the issue is that the Soviets don't really have the stock units to counter it. It has too much health to bring down with AT grenades and is relatively easy to screen against Soviet AT guns. The UKF have a fairly simple strategy (Sapper PIATs) to deal with it and USF has a similar option (RE Bazookas) but the Soviets lack of non-doctrinal infantry AT puts them in a bad spot.

I'm also not a fan of the way the Jagdtiger makes light vehicle play far too risky. This is an issue with CoH2's phase-based design in general (unit obsolescence) and also with the Elefant, Pak43 and 17-Pounder of course.

If allies surviving hard midgame with amount of advantages they have, they should have done lots of mistakes and should pay for it.

The problem with a faction having a <phase>-game advantage is that early-, mid- and late-game aren't equally valuable. Look at the pre-UKF win rates, for example. 1v1 traditionally favoured USF and the Soviets (due to early/mid advantages playing a larger part) while 4v4 favoured OKW and Ostheer because most 4v4 games last until late-game.

Interesting discussions. At lower level rank play, I coordinate pushes with cromwell spam, team mates, and arty cover (even post nerf). I realize that's a "ton of resources for one unit" but usually that kind of a coordinated push is pretty back breaking for any axis army. A lot of times all the FHQs are fairly close to whichever VP or fuel point you are pushing, and you end up wiping those as well. Plus, it allows you to secure whichever point you are pushing and have time to dig in with your own forces.

Wrong, you can right click the target as long as you have LOS on it with any other unit.

what ? why my jagd keep moving when i tell him to shoot ?

Apologies, I got a bit confused by your original reply.

I claimed that the the JT, the Command Panther and the Sturmtiger feel underpriced.
- The Sturmtiger performs vastly better than similar units (AVRE) for the same price (neither unit fits the "squad preservation" theme of CoH2 very well, but whatever)
- The Command Panther has abilities that are significantly better and/or cheaper than similar abilities of other factions (OKW Combat Blitz is OST Blitzkrieg on steroids; 35 Munitions Coordinated Fire). That's a Relic from the pre-revamp days, when OKW could choose between Fuel or Munitions but not both.
- The JT costs way too little resources (esp Manpower) for something that wants to be an Elefant that is more durable, have better range, and also retain AI capabilities.

Now, I don't know what the price of these units should be. For instance, we don't know if Relic decides to introduce global upgrades on OKW or something else that will limit the availability of these units.

jt cost ton of manpower and fuel nd remember it still hAS CREW SHOOK

Because you didn't activated the ability to ignore shot blockers?

It will also auto attack armor in range.

17 pounder emplacement works the same way with its ability.

Because you didn't activated the ability to ignore shot blockers?

It will also auto attack armor in range.

17 pounder emplacement works the same way with its ability.

REALLY ? why the fuck my JT keep moving god hate me? I have a different JT from the other

REALLY ? why the fuck my JT keep moving god hate me? I have a different JT from the other

It has to load the round first after clicking the button.

It has to load the round first after clicking the button.

dude you don't understand is 1 year i use a-g for the jt for the pr beacuse the first 2 time it keep moving (same for 17 pounder that didn't shoot)

Jagdtigers wouldn't be so scary if any allied tank had a snowballs chance of hell of flanking it.

It's OKW so there will be volks schrecks, and since allied armor mostly sucks, any other tank supporting the JT is going to be enough to hold off major allied offensives. And even panzerfusiliers have an AT nade of sorts. Plus time and fuel willing, OKW can still make a KT.

The bigger the gamemode, the easier it is to offset any weaknesses. Hell, with an Ostheer building caches, all of OKW's arsenal starts spilling out at an accelerated speed.

jt cost ton of manpower and fuel nd remember it still hAS CREW SHOOK

You are right that the JT costs a ton of manpower. However, the JT doesn't cost enough manpower to justify its current level of performance.

The JT costs exactly the same amount of manpower as the ISU, or the Elefant; and there's no way that the impact that JT has on the game is on a remotely equal footing with either of those units; the Elefant only performs a subset of a functions that the JT can.

Not only that, but the JT has a devastating impact on the end-game on the vast oustanding majority of maps for bigger game modes.

Hence cost, performance or availability adjustments might have to be made to compensate. But, first, let's see which direction OKW is heading.

And no; crew shock is not a deterrent enough on 85-range unit with 500 frontal armour. Especially for the mode that the OP describes.

Jagdtigers wouldn't be so scary if any allied tank had a snowballs chance of hell of flanking it.

It's OKW so there will be volks schrecks, and since allied armor mostly sucks, any other tank supporting the JT is going to be enough to hold off major allied offensives. And even panzerfusiliers have an AT nade of sorts. Plus time and fuel willing, OKW can still make a KT.

The bigger the gamemode, the easier it is to offset any weaknesses. Hell, with an Ostheer building caches, all of OKW's arsenal starts spilling out at an accelerated speed.

You can only have 1 heavy tank

You are right that the JT costs a ton of manpower. However, the JT doesn't cost enough manpower to justify its current level of performance.

The JT costs exactly the same amount of manpower as the ISU, or the Elefant; and there's no way that the impact that JT has on the game is on a remotely equal footing with either of those units; the Elefant only performs a subset of a functions that the JT can.

Not only that, but the JT has a devastating impact on the end-game on the vast oustanding majority of maps for bigger game modes.

Hence cost, performance or availability adjustments might have to be made to compensate. But, first, let's see which direction OKW is heading.

And no; crew shock is not a deterrent enough on 85-range unit with 500 frontal armour. Especially for the mode that the OP describes.

While a cost increase or performance decrease would help with the issues in 3v3+, it would also make the unit even more unreachable/undesirable in 1v1 and to some extent 2v2. That has to be considered imo.

The JT costs exactly the same amount of manpower as the ISU, or the Elefant; and there's no way that the impact that JT has on the game is on a remotely equal footing with either of those units; the Elefant only performs a subset of a functions that the JT can.

elefant
Production cost: 720 manpower, 245 fuel
Population cap: 20
jagdtiger
800mp 290fu 26pop

elefant
Production cost: 720 manpower, 245 fuel
Population cap: 20
jagdtiger
800mp 290fu 26pop

I am not sure if you are running a mod, but I literally just launched the game, and the cost for the Jagtiger is:
720MP, 280FU, 21popcap for me.

The values you listed are a bit closer to what the unit cost should have been.

While a cost increase or performance decrease would help with the issues in 3v3+, it would also make the unit even more unreachable/undesirable in 1v1 and to some extent 2v2. That has to be considered imo.

While that's true, we also have to accept the fact that certain units scale way better the more crowded a game-mode becomes:
- Extreme-long range units (basically the TDs)
- All artillery units in general
- Aura units

Now, there's a choice that we need to make:
1. Do we balance everything with 1v1 in mind, and then completely forget about teamgames
2. Do we balance units according to the strongest gamemode they can be featured?
3. Do we introduce different rules for each gamemode?

Most likely, #3 is never going to happen. Therefore, we have to choose between #1 and #2. I'd say that #2 is the best option, since it is our best bet to avoid having broken gamemodes (e.g., Arty Cover/CalliOP fun times). An unfortunate side-effect is that some of the well-scaling units will probably not remain as viable for smaller game-modes.

2. Do we balance units according to the strongest gamemode they can be featured?

you realize that alot of allied units/abilitys would be nerfed to the ground then?

why? remember the 100% winrate of 4v4 tourney, by that logic allied stuff is way overperfoming and would be nerfed by that approach.

I am not sure if you are running a mod, but I literally just launched the game, and the cost for the Jagtiger is:
720MP, 280FU, 21popcap for me.

The values you listed are a bit closer to what the unit cost should have been.

He's looking at the unit cost in the game files or one of those coh2 stat sites. The game uses the call-in commander ability cost, which doesn't show when you look up the individual unit in the game files.