So penal is underpowered? or others are overpowered?

Penals should become more attractive... turning them into a unit that can take out 1v1 Gren/PG and Volks/SP is another.

why shouldnt they be able to 1v1 grens or volks tho?
volks can 1v1 cons despite costing only 10mp more
grens can 1v1 cons despite costing the same! (onus of micro on soviet player)
penals atm cost 30mp more than grens and 20 more than volks..

i (personally) would not expect any buff (that keeps their current price) to make them eat SP or Pgrens, just b... better...

And I don't need them for flamer.
See, this is yet another case of role overlap. Yes, its useful, but its hardly a reason to get them, because CE already cover that. Pair of CEs will do incomparably better job at pretty much everything and it won't even cost you more as you start with one.

Except that you have other jobs for your CE's to be doing - constructing buildings, repairing vehicles, detecting mines, laying mines - all of which are not getting done while you are using them as flamers. Would you turn down a flamer you found lying on the ground? Probably not.

Reinforce cost aren't really that relevant, because you can use cons for merge.

That was purchase price. Disregarding the cost of T1, Penals are cheaper per model. Including the cost of T1, they are significantly more expensive, especially if you only build one or two.

Same with the penals, they were supported by merge cons so they can stay on field, these strats still weren't effective at all vs better players, because later on penals became irrelevant, not being able to keep up with long range firepower of axis and being squishy compared to everyone else.

I don't really get what "strats" you mean; if these strats amount to trying to build Penals instead of Cons, I wouldn't automatically expect that to work any more than I would expect building 4 mortars to work. Nor would I want it to, because as I've already indicated, that would render Cons redundant. So I fail to see how this means much.

why shouldnt they be able to 1v1 grens or volks tho?
...

With suggested numbers they will be able to 1v1 PG and SP...
Gren vs Con is designed to have gren win at max range and Con wins at mid range...

With suggested numbers they will be able to 1v1 PG and SP...
Gren vs Con is designed to have gren win at max range and Con wins at mid range...

wouldn't a pgren SP win at mid/ close still (kinda like the inverse of con/gren?)

edit: a close range nerf was never suggested, thats what is hanging me up. a long range buff would require a short ranged dps nerf

wouldn't a pgren SP win at mid/ close still (kinda like the inverse of con/gren?)

edit: a close range nerf was never suggested, thats what is hanging me up. a long range buff would require a short ranged dps nerf

With allot of the stats suggested Penals with flamers would probably win vs PG and SP at all ranges, while dominate grens and Volks at all ranges.

With allot of the stats suggested Penals with flamers would probably win vs PG and SP at all ranges, while dominate grens and Volks at all ranges.

Penals close range damage remains unchanged so the PG/SP relationship remains what it is at the moment. 8 ~ makes a penal squad a little bit better then Volks 1v1 and a little worse on cost efficiency. Grens get beat stock then pull ahead with an lmg at range + rifle nades + cheaper squad etc.

Say stick the squad cost -> 290 to be a midpoint between cons & guards.

Its hard to account for the lack of utility on Penals, if they can't outshoot stuff their pretty pointless, but outshoot by how much? Prob following the m1 is about right (~10% up close).

Penals close range damage remains unchanged so the PG/SP relationship remains what it is at the moment.

If penal with flamer can win against PG/SP at range then PG/SP would have to close in flamer range so they would probably still lose the fight...

Its hard to account for the lack of utility on Penals, if they can't outshoot stuff their pretty pointless, but outshoot by how much? Prob following the m1 is about right (~10% up close).

That is one of my point all along. Trying to fix Penal with only changing their DPS is very tricky.
The vet abilities and bonuses need to look at and more utility must be given to them...

I actually really like the idea of satchel charges working more like sticky bombs but instead of engine damage, crew stun/turret/gun damage.

Maybe instead of homing, they'd just stick to any vehicle they 'land' on, putting a little more challenge into it.

They'd synergize well with conscripts ATGs, as well as Guards' Button.

If penal with flamer can win against PG/SP at range then PG/SP would have to close in flamer range so they would probably still lose the fight...

So a close range unit will have to close on a longer range unit? the horror.

Starting up close SPs/PG's lunch flamer penals, half the time they don't even lose a guy.

That is one of my point all along. Trying to fix Penal with only changing their DPS is very tricky.
The vet abilities and bonuses need to look at and more utility must be given to them...

What utility can you give them?

You can't really take any from cons cause their not exactly great.

So a close range unit will have to close on a longer range unit? the horror.

PG are not a close range units, they are a mid range unit. Losing at their optimal range from a unit with lower tech and cost, does no make sense...

Penals with the suggested number will not be a long range it will be a unit that can outgun most axis units in all ranges, and that is simply bad design. Squad work allot better when they are good at some range but weaker in another...

What utility can you give them?
You can't really take any from cons cause their not exactly great.

One should probably take some away from the cons and adjust cost and/or increase their far DPS a bit and/or give them some defensive bonuses when fighting from cover.

There simply needs to be a different role for each unit. Currently both are optimum to fight against axis mainline infatry at mid range. Penal are simply a bit better at it and bit more specialized in anti-garrison anti-building, while conscripts have more utility and abilities.

If you want examples of roles sent me a pm

PG are not a close range units, they are a mid range unit. Losing at their optimal range from a unit with lower tech and cost, does no make sense...

Sooooo an axis mid range unit can have awesome close range dps, awesome mid range dps, and hit all the way out to 35, but a soviet mid range unit can't have ok close, good mid and ok long range dps because .... things.

Penals with a munition spend get lunched by vanilla PGs from 0-35. That sounds like a pointless unit to me....

Penals with the suggested number will not be a long range it will be a unit that can outgun most axis units in all ranges, and that is simply bad design. Squad work allot better when they are good at some range but weaker in another...

Jack of all trades master of none.....

Your confusing base line stats for the SVT with how the unit would perform through the game.

They would slightly outgun grens for cost & lose to volks for cost. As soon as grens get their lmgs or nades they would be far far better at range......

PGs/SP would still be far better up close.

Obers/lmg grens would still be far better at range.

One should probably take some away from the cons and adjust cost and/or increase their far DPS a bit and/or give them some defensive bonuses when fighting from cover.

There simply needs to be a different role for each unit. Currently both are optimum to fight against axis mainline infatry at mid range. Penal are simply a bit better at it and bit more specialized in anti-garrison anti-building, while conscripts have more utility and abilities.

If you want examples of roles sent me a pm

Penals are not currently optimal at mid range, currently their meh short range units.

PG are not a close range units, they are a mid range unit. Losing at their optimal range from a unit with lower tech and cost, does no make sense...

Penals with the suggested number will not be a long range it will be a unit that can outgun most axis units in all ranges, and that is simply bad design. Squad work allot better when they are good at some range but weaker in another...

Like for example grens, who are decent at all ranges and lose at closer only by attrition?
Or PGs who outgun cons at long range?
Or falls who are very good at all ranges?
Or STG obers who are excellent at all ranges AND negate opponents cover?
Or like pfussies who outlast opponents at long range and outgun them at mid to short, unless you use dual LMGs at long or dual BAR at short range vs them?

Majority of axis squads work well at all ranges.
Sturmpios, AGs and pios are the only exceptions here.

Plus penals still won't beat PGs at mid range.
If you want to talk about flamer, then that makes penals MORE expensive then PGs and there is no reason why shouldn't they have the advantage.

There simply needs to be a different role for each unit. Currently both are optimum to fight against axis mainline infatry at mid range. Penal are simply a bit better at it and bit more specialized in anti-garrison anti-building, while conscripts have more utility and abilities.

Oh, like a unit decent at most ranges but not excelling over specialists at these ranges, which doesn't exist in soviet roster yet?
Like... penals with doubled long range dps!
Why are you so terrified of this?
They won't become rifles no matter how many times you repeat it in your head, because they don't have all the benefits rifles have. They'll be just as dependent on cons as they are now, except they won't be premium cost cons.

Sooooo an axis mid range unit can have awesome close range dps...

If you are claiming PG are OP as an AI unit, I can hardly see that. Most people don use them for their AI but mainly for their AT

Penals with a munition spend get lunched by vanilla PGs from 0-35. That sounds like a pointless unit to me....

Pg a 340 T2 units losing to at T1 unit with a 60 MU upgrade...that sounds a like pointless unit to me

Your confusing base line stats for the SVT with how the unit would perform through the game.
They would slightly outgun grens for cost & lose to volks for cost. As soon as grens get their lmgs or nades they would be far far better at range......

You are confusing DPS and who wins a fight. Penals will not only outgun axis mainline infatry but will also be tougher then them having more EHP

PGs/SP would still be far better up close.

and would lose trying to move up close since they don't have sprint or smoke...

Penals are not currently optimal at mid range, currently their meh short range units.

Having a flamer and semi automatic weapon makes perform better at mid. The best range to use a flamer is about 20 the best range to use Penals is about 12-15...

If you are claiming PG are OP as an AI unit, I can hardly see that. Most people don use them for their AI but mainly for their AT

No and that's the point. PGs are fine as a mid range unit with great close range & mid range damage. Your claiming PGs are fine but a rifle squad with OK close Good medium and OK far is somehow OMGFG HAX when the current rifle squad in game proves it isn't....

Pg a 340 T2 units losing to at T1 unit with a 60 MU upgrade...that sounds a like pointless unit to me

At all ranges, sounds about

You are confusing DPS and who wins a fight. Penals will not only outgun axis mainline infatry but will also be tougher then them having more EHP

Nope, factoring in cost, dps & EHP Penals doing the same squad damage as rifles outshoot grens a little at range stock, then get stomped when grens get upgrades. Stock Volks > new penals at range.

and would lose trying to move up close since they don't have sprint or smoke...

Since when is bum rushing a longer range unit is expected to be a better strategy. Ost have all the tools they need in the box.

Having a flamer and semi automatic weapon makes perform better at mid. The best range to use a flamer is about 20 the best range to use Penals is about 12-15...

No it doesn't cause the SVT sucks hard mid range its dropping off hard by 20. Its point blank or bust.

The SVT is closer to SMGs then the other semi auto rifles.

Most smg's are still going strong at 10 & grens & co start to outdamage the SVT from 15, this is meant to be on a mid range unit......

If you want to talk about flamer, then that makes penals MORE expensive then PGs and there is no reason why shouldn't they have the advantage.

Well that is not what you originally suggested, you suggested that the one and only change need to fix Penals is doubling the far DPS. It nice to see that you are coming to your senses and realizing that would you initially suggested was wrong

Like... penals with doubled long range dps!
Why are you so terrified of this?
They won't become rifles no matter how many times you repeat it in your head,because they don't have all the benefits rifles have...

I am not terrified of this because I am not funboy...

"They won't become rifles..." You are simply contradicting yourself since you have written:

Basically makes them Rifles who don't scale as well, but work in contrast of soviet army.

Actually you are the one repeating things in your head with out reading or understanding what other say. What I have said so far is that if Penal need to become a long range unit they should have bolt action rifles...
Gren have DPS 35 9.05
Volks have DPs 35 9.03
and both are long range infatry

Penal currently have 4.67 and doubling that would bring them to 9.34 making have better DPS at far than long range infantry like volks and Gren while having also more EHP and being far better than K98 in mid and close.

..like a unit decent at most ranges but not excelling over specialists at these ranges...

With this DPS and EHP it not just decent but one of the most cost efficient stock units in the game when it comes to DPS and EHP...

In addition since you don't seem to able to listen to me read what elchino7 wrote:

-I don't think doubling the far DPS is the SOLUTION to fix Penals.

No it doesn't cause the SVT sucks hard mid range its dropping off hard by 20. Its point blank or bust.

Once more a Penal squad has currently more DPS then riflemen at ranges about up to 12 with flamer it has better DPS at range close to 15.

Optimal range for Flamer Penals is not point blank in most cases...

Once more a Penal squad has currently more DPS then riflemen at ranges about up to 12 with flamer it has better DPS at range close to 15.

Optimal range for Flamer Penals is not point blank in most cases...

Yeap, Penals slightly outgun a jack of all trades generalist unit up close, then get outgunned within the range of their own weapon upgrade.... that should tell you whats wrong with them.

Rifles have mearly OK dps up close, being ballpark to them is not impressive, especially when they pull far ahead from 15 on.

Having an optimal range of 10-15 and useless above / outperformed by SMGs below seems so useful.....

Oh, like a unit decent at most ranges but not excelling over specialists at these ranges, which doesn't exist in soviet roster yet?
Like... penals with doubled long range dps!
Why are you so terrified of this?
They won't become rifles no matter how many times you repeat it in your head, because they don't have all the benefits rifles have. They'll be just as dependent on cons as they are now, except they won't be premium cost cons.

1. All guns must follow weapon profiles
2. All the other guns in the game which don't follow 1 are exceptions and fine.
3. Copying an existing gun does not make it the same it makes it OMG OP.

...
Yeap, Penals slightly outgun a jack of all trades generalist unit up close, then get outgunned within the range of their own weapon upgrade.... that should tell you whats wrong with them.
....

Rifles are one of the most versatility and cost effective mainline infatry...don't try to present them an average unit, if they are simply average why are you trying to turn Penals into mini rifles?

It does tell me what is wrong with them they need less DPs close, more DPS mid and some DPS far (no way near 200%), and that is what I have being saying from the start for the SVT weapon.

Rifles are one of the most versatility and cost effective mainline infatry...don't try to present them an average unit, if they are simply average why are you trying to turn Penals into mini rifles?

Because they have great rec acc vet scaling, access to multitude of weapons, effective grenades, including smoke one, possibility of getting LMG, can loud out DOUBLE weapons or any combination of them they want, have AI nades and can have flares to scout ahead.

Penals have NOTHING of that and they are one of the LEAST versatile infantry, even vet keeps them squishy and no, they don't outDPS rifles in any way shape or form when vet and weapon upgrades are considered and YOU still believe they will become same squad?
How self deluded are you?

The ONLY similarity between them will be in cost and in effectiveness across ranges.

It does tell me what is wrong with them they need less DPs close, more DPS mid and some DPS far (no way near 200%), and that is what I have being saying from the start for the SVT weapon.

Ok, take away 4 close range DPS and add 4 far range DPS.

/thread