Penals Adjustment

And Penals DPS dropoff is way bigger then all the other semi autos / Carbines profiles, guess thats why Penals suck.

Must be a typo, Lelic should match the dps curve to the correct profile and buff the long range dps by 70%.

Once more the SVT is curve is wrong but it is wrong and in both ends...It is to high close not enough mid and too low far...

If it is weapon profile issue pls move it in the new thread created...

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I mostly agree except lack of rec. acc.

By saying, that Cons should be used for screening, it puts soviet player in a spot where he needs at least 2 kinds of mainline infantry (sometimes even 3 if Guards/Shocks) to get what's best from Penals. It's completly different than anyother faction. Rifles, Volks, Grens or Tommies don't need any screening. They just vet up and become better in terms of firepower and suravilibity. By using Cons and Penals together you put much more micro on soviets player.

Second thing, I can't imagine close combat units without rec. acc. bonus if that unit does not have camo/smoke/armor.
Shocks - smoke and armor.
Rifles - smoke and rec. acc.
Assault Grens - sprint at vet 0, no tech and superior close range.

I mean, with such approach we could easily take armor from shocks becase Cons shold do screening.

In other words, Im not convinced to your point.

Once more the SVT is curve is wrong but it is wrong and in both ends...It is to high close not enough mid and too low far...

If it is weapon profile issue pls move it in the new thread created...

Facts say no.

Look it up, got the graphs in front of me and all the other semi autos have higher 35 dps compared to 0.

You can say otherwise but you'd be incorrect.

I mostly agree except lack of rec. acc.

By saying, that Cons should be used for screening, it puts soviet player in a spot where he needs at least 2 kinds of mainline infantry (sometimes even 3 if Guards/Shocks) to get what's best from Penals. It's completly different than anyother faction. Rifles, Volks, Grens or Tommies don't need any screening. They just vet up and become better in terms of firepower and suravilibity. By using Cons and Penals together you put much more micro on soviets player.

Second thing, I can't imagine close combat units without rec. acc. bonus if that unit does not have camo/smoke/armor.
Shocks - smoke and armor.
Rifles - smoke and rec. acc.
Assault Grens - sprint at vet 0, no tech and superior close range.

I mean, with such approach we could easily take armor from shocks becase Cons shold do screening.

In other words, Im not convinced to your point.

I'll preface this post with the following:
1. I'm not an expert on weapon profiles
2. I've only tried the proposed Penals on the receiving end (when Miragefla kicked my arse when we played his mod)

I believe Miragefla's intention is to turn Penals into a unit that has access to 2 roles and excels only in that area, depending on whether or not the upgrade is purchased:
- Without purchasing the upgrade, Penals are pretty damn good long-range fighters. However, you need to screen for them with other troops, or you will bleed
- With the upgrade, Penals turn into budget shocks with a flamer (the intent of throwing the 3 PPSH's along with the flamer upgrade is so that we don't reintroduce the Rifle Company effect into the game). Thus, if you want flamers, Penals will have to give up their long-range DPS.

Now, with respect to intra-faction synergy, requiring that units of multiple types be present on the field should be viewed as design we should aim for.

Compare this to the following factions that require/force you out of spamming a particular type of unit:
- I don't think it is viable to spam Grens if you want to win a game
- You will bleed very hard if you only spam Tommies (more than 2-3 is a crowd); it makes sense to mix some Sappers in, since they are cheaper/more durable

Compare it to the WFA factions where it is not only viable, but it is the meta to face against:
- Rifle, Rifle, Rifle
- Volks, Volks, Volks

Redesigning Penals should mean to carve out a role for them and make them viable. They should not substitute Conscripts (and neither Maxims should be able to substitute Conscripts AND Penals, as they currently do).

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Huh?
Acctualy I know everything about profiles
Cons are meant to be mid-long range, not Penals. What't the point of 3 long range units in 1 faction?

You did not get point. I ve never said about spamming Grens. I ve said that you don't need to use second type of infantry during battle becasie Grens can receive damage and inflict damage on their orwn.

Again, not a single word about spamming Tommies. You completly missread my post. Where I did say about spamming? All I ve said was the fact that they don't need screening and they can do just fine without any other units.

Facts say no.
Look it up, got the graphs in front of me and all the other semi autos have higher 35 dps compared to 0.
You can say otherwise but you'd be incorrect.

One can have more DPS at 35 than at 0 either by increasing far or by decreasing close or by changing both. In this case close should be decreased and far increased...and that is what I proposed...
once more if it is a weapon profile issue pls move it to thread "weapon profiles"

as you can from penal squad to riflemen ratio:

It even has more DPS than a riflemen squad at some ranges...
106%(0) 123%(5) 109%(10) 84%(15) 74%(20) 67%(25) 62%(30) 56%(35)

too much dps up to range 10 too little from 25 and on

One can have more DPS at 35 than at 0 either by increasing far or by decreasing close or by changing both. In this case close should be decreased and far increased...and that is what I proposed...
once more if it is a weapon profile issue pls move it to thread "weapon profiles"

as you can from penal squad to riflemen ratio:


too much dps up to range 10 too little from 25 and on

Congrats on the u turn.

I doubt the dps difference due to near being 6 rather then 3 makes much difference but if the whole rifle profile is used but dropped 15% or so it should workout.

Congrats on the u turn.
I doubt the dps difference due to near being 6 rather then 3 makes much difference but if the whole rifle profile is used but dropped 15% or so it should workout.

Never made a U turn...

Never made a U turn...

I can confirm that.

He is running full circles.

A lot a wrong things

https://www.coh2.org/topic/50599/the-current-state-of-the-penal-battalion

read, learn, watch some replays.

Penals are fine. You just aren't using them properly

Invised some spam, back to topic.

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Having a Flamethrower upgrade doesn't mean the penal needs ppsh. The flamethrower in game have a range of 20 meter versus the normal fire arm range of 35. The flamethrower have shorter range than rifle, but still longer range than usual smg optimal range of 0-10.

Getting closer with your flamethrower squad is not really going to help your flamethrower kill faster. it would help the rest of the squad, but the flamethrower itself only needs to get into that 20 meters to be effective.

A smg + flamethrower combination is easier to use, since you only need to worry about getting as close as possible with the squad. However, a smg+flamethrower also waste the flamethrower's 20 meter range.

An experienced player should be able to take advantage of a rifle flamethrower squad by getting close enough to use the flamethrower without needing to get up close and personal.

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can we please keep this in the other thread.

https://www.coh2.org/topic/50599/the-current-state-of-the-penal-battalion

read, learn, watch some replays.

Penals are fine. You just aren't using them properly

1- At lower ranks everything works. It's not about the unit rather than the player.
2- They offer too little for what you gain in comparison to what you give up.

Having a Flamethrower upgrade doesn't mean the penal needs ppsh. The flamethrower in game have a range of 20 meter versus the normal fire arm range of 35. The flamethrower have shorter range than rifle, but still longer range than usual smg optimal range of 0-10.

Getting closer with your flamethrower squad is not really going to help your flamethrower kill faster. it would help the rest of the squad, but the flamethrower itself only needs to get into that 20 meters to be effective.

A smg + flamethrower combination is easier to use, since you only need to worry about getting as close as possible with the squad. However, a smg+flamethrower also waste the flamethrower's 20 meter range.

It's done so the same Penal squad won't mow down the troop leaving cover unless they're in close.

You don't remember rifle company flamers where the rifles would then smoke you out of cover than chew you apart with the M1s? Here, the Penals, need to trade their effectiveness at range so you don't get a squad that constantly removes you from cover while being effective at most ranges against other rifle infantry.

It's done so the same Penal squad won't mow down the troop leaving cover unless they're in close.

You don't remember rifle company flamers where the rifles would then smoke you out of cover than chew you apart with the M1s? Here, the Penals, need to trade their effectiveness at range so you don't get a squad that constantly removes you from cover while being effective at most ranges against other rifle infantry.

Rifles had quite a lot of stuff that penals miss.

Durability with vet being most important here, but contrary to rifles, penals are extremely vulnerable against light vehicles, 222 rips them a new one and they are completely helpless against it.

You will never see as much penals as rifles for the sole reason they lack all the utility needed by main infantry, you still need conscripts for AT nades, you still need guards or fast T2 for AT, you can do magic with rifles because of their nades, AT nades, smoke, capt buffs, penals have none of it, flamer was one reason why elite rifles were op, but it was hardly THE reason.

It's done so the same Penal squad won't mow down the troop leaving cover unless they're in close.

You don't remember rifle company flamers where the rifles would then smoke you out of cover than chew you apart with the M1s? Here, the Penals, need to trade their effectiveness at range so you don't get a squad that constantly removes you from cover while being effective at most ranges against other rifle infantry.

yes, I remember. It's also why I want the penal to retain the svt-40.

The major problem with balancing rifle flamethrower is that the flamethrower was a dlc doctrinal upgrade. It wouldn't make sense to nerf the rifle to accommodate a DLC doctrine.

the penal, however, would be designed and balanced around the fact it's got a flamethrower.

With the US flame rifle remove, the penal have the opportunity to be truly unique.

...
It's done so the same Penal squad won't mow down the troop leaving cover unless they're in close.
...

the real problem with your idea is that conscripts PPsh that you are probably using does not use normal SMG profiles and has more DPS than SVT at range 15...so they will still be lethal.

As also have pointed out to you before increasing weapon damage to increase DPS of SVT is the wrong way to go about it.

The simplest and more compatible (with game mechanics) way to have 2 separate roles for Penals is to have come out with Bolt action rifles so that that they are weak close and have the upgrade replace bolt action with carbine and flamer so that the have good DPS mid. (the SVT need to have it profile adjusted so that it has less dps close more mid and a bit more far but that is subject for weapon profiles thread)

the real problem with your idea is that conscripts PPsh that you are probably using does not use normal SMG profiles and has more DPS than SVT at range 15...so they will still be lethal.

The simplest and more compatible (with game mechanics) way to have 2 separate roles for Penals is to have come out with Bolt action rifles so that that they are weak close and have the upgrade replace bolt action with carbine and flamer so that the have good DPS mid. (the SVT need to have it profile adjusted so that it has less dps close more mid and a bit more far but that is subject for weapon profiles thread)

The game mechanics do not support adding to different weapon types in an upgrade, especially if one is given to all the remaining squad members as it doesn't prioritize different slot items. Basically if the flamer guy dies on the current squad its passed to a new member, when the last guy drops theres a chance to drop it. With 5 upgrade SVTs and a flamer, theres a chance to drop the flamer when the flamer guy dies, and it isn't passed on, not reappearing until the squad is reinforced. The flamer if dropped can't be repurchased either.

An SVT is not a carbine, its a semi-auto battle rifle, you keep getting confused on this.

To match the SVT to the G43 rifle profile dps goes to/from;

5.99 5.99 4.44 3.10 2.32 1.87 1.55 1.31
5.99 5.99 3.94 2.38 1.72 1.31 1.01 0.77

Which sounds about right.

Your confusing making the SVT OK at range rather then sucking making with it a long range specialist. A penal squad will still perform far better at mid range.

The game mechanics do not support adding to different weapon types in an upgrade,....

That is bug that also affects other units and it should be fixed...if it is too difficult make it 3 SVT +1 Flamer...

An SVT is not a carbine, its a semi-auto battle rifle, you keep getting confused on this.

Actaully you are getting confused...In real life SVT is not Carbine, in game it is what ever Relic decides to call it and they decided to call the profile of semi automatic rifles as "carbine profile"
PLS move this to the weapon profiles thread...

To match the SVT to the G43 rifle profile dps goes to/from;
5.99 5.99 4.44 3.10 2.32 1.87 1.55 1.31
5.99 5.99 3.94 2.38 1.72 1.31 1.01 0.77
Which sounds about right.

But is completely wrong...
1)G43 is not a default weapon but a weapon upgrade thus more power full, try matching the Mp40 or shocks PPsh with Conscripts PPsh and see what happens
2) G43 is restricted to half the squad member and not all of them, so unless you are suggesting that all members of axis squad should get G43 the comparison is not valid.
3)You are matching the profiles by only buffing the weapon far DPS which result to massive buff to the profile area...As I explained to you before that start of curve 5.99 is already too high because Penal squads have more DPS even then riflemen at that range...Now start you curve from around 4-4.5 instead of 5.99 and you would have a much more realistic curve...

Your confusing making the SVT OK at range rather then sucking making with it a long range specialist. A penal squad will still perform far better at mid range.

And you are confusing why weapon profiles where introduced in the first place. With your suggestion Penals as t1 270 units would beat P.G. a 340 T2 unit far forcing P.G. to leave cover and attack. In addition a Penal squad with a flamer would beat P.G. at all ranges...and things would get even worse with veterancy...

Having durable, cheap to reinforce squads, with high veterancy bonuses, with access to flamer that deny cover and without any weakness in any range, breaks infatry to infatry fights forcing enemy players to look for solution elsewhere...


PLS take debate about weapon profiles to the appropriate thread...