Elite troops, Soviet industry, vet riflemen.

We all remember the demise of the 'Elite Troops', 'Soviet Industry', and the 'Rifle Company' back in December. It really crippled the doctrines in a a way, but the abilities that were removed, were replaced by meh-trash abilities. I'd like to bring back what made those doctrines amazing by redoing them, while keeping the same idea. Here are some ways I'd propose to rework the removed abilities from each doctrine:

• 'Troop Training':
  -Make it a passive ability that makes all units vet up faster, but it would come later in the game to make sure early game isn't quickly dominated.
  -Make it a targeted ability like the original, but it would allow units to vet up faster, while also making them more vulnerable to enemy fire. It would cost 80 mp and 15 fuel per use. The targeted unit would also have something similar to the 'Mark Target' icon above them.
  -Change it to a timed ability that makes all units vet up faster for a brief time. it would cost 120 mp and 45 fuel.
  
  
• 'Soviet Industry':
  -Make it a timed ability that would increase the fuel income of fuel points and fuel caches for 60 seconds. It would have a 180 second cool down, and would stop if any fuel point was captured/ fuel cache was destroyed. It would cost 200 mp and 50 munitions.
  Replace 'Soviet Industry' (now 'Allied Supply Drop') with Zis-6 trucks which function similarly to Opel Blitz Trucks.
  
  
• 'Veteran Riflemen':
  -Veteran riflemen don't immediately come with veterancy, but the requirement is lowered. They still have all the limitations of original Vet Riflemen.
  
  I really do not expect anybody to like these ideas, but I do expect this would get a discussion started on how they could be 'revamped', WITHOUT any necromancy. Please keep the replies flame-free, and on-topic.

If vet wasn't so incredibly powerful now that it actually works I wouldn't mind so much. Now that it does I'm not in favor of anything which artificially gives vet.

I have better idea - make doctrines back as they were. I really like old Elite doctrine, Soviet industry of those days was only way to make poor T-34-76 useable by massive spam and vetted riflemans could give in early game some fire at Spios.

I personally had no problems with old doctrines as they were, please make them back. You only destroyed really interesting doctrines with interesting abilites and posibilites...

If vet wasn't so incredibly powerful now that it actually works I wouldn't mind so much. Now that it does I'm not in favor of anything which artificially gives vet.

I'd like to think of it as doctrine-associated vet bulletins. It would work the same way, except maybe 20-25% instead of 5-10%. It really would depend on the way you look at those bulletins though.

What about the Tiger Ace? A unit that can´t vet up and punishes you for keeping it alive for a longer time. A tank that arrives even if you have been denied all fuel. A unit that arrives way too late at the highest CP cost in the game.

This is what truly does not fit into the game.

I like the Soviet Industry idea - if anything because the fuel drop is pointless versus OKW. It might be cool if they changed Soviet Industry into a HQ toggle where you could trade MP gain rate for Fuel rate. (Maybe/Probably OP depending on the ratio). Should be mid-game ability so there aren't cheese M5/T70 rushes.

Troop Training and Vet Rifleman might be okay if they were passive abilities that came at late early- middle game that let you build units with some Vet but they cost more and/or take longer to build (you know, extra training time). Would give you the option to replace losses with semi-Vets at a cost. Key is that it can't be too early or else it disrupts pacing.

no.

Soviet industry was just bad, not gamebreaking. It is still rather shit, and I would like to see it returned to a reworked version of its former self.

Troop training and elite riflemen were awful, they go against the fundamental gameplay of squad preservation and reward. I am glad they are gone. The veteran riflemen doctrine is still arguably the best USF doctrine (if you disagree, it's still top 3.) Stormtroopers are just bad themselves and need a change, they are bad in the encirclement doctrine too.

In my opinion all three doctrines are quite fine right now. Probably the Tiger Ace, without fuel cost, it's the only ability that it's not balanced, though it comes really late so...

We all remember the demise of the 'Elite Troops', 'Soviet Industry', and the 'Rifle Company' back in December. It really crippled the doctrines in a a way, but the abilities that were removed, were replaced by meh-trash abilities. I'd like to bring back what made those doctrines amazing by redoing them, while keeping the same idea. Here are some ways I'd propose to rework the removed abilities from each doctrine:

• 'Troop Training':
  -Make it a passive ability that makes all units vet up faster, but it would come later in the game to make sure early game isn't quickly dominated.
  -Make it a targeted ability like the original, but it would allow units to vet up faster, while also making them more vulnerable to enemy fire. It would cost 80 mp and 15 fuel per use.
  -Change it to a timed ability that makes all units vet up faster for a brief time. it would cost 120 mp and 45 fuel.
  
  
• 'Soviet Industry':
  -Make it a timed ability that would increase the fuel income of fuel points and fuel caches for 60 seconds. It would have a 180 second cool down, and would stop if any fuel point was captured/ fuel cache was destroyed. It would cost 200 mp and 50 munitions.
  
  
• 'Veteran Riflemen':
  -Veteran riflemen don't immediately come with veterancy, but the requirement is lowered.
  
  I really do not expect anybody to like these ideas, but I do expect this would get a discussion started on how they could be 'revamped', WITHOUT any necromancy. Please keep the replies flame-free, and on-topic.

I've got to say that I'm impressed. I don't necessarily agree with artificially awarded veterancy, but I'm still happy to see a forum-goer bring up the subject of doctrines that could have seen smoother changes, rather than leaving them in the dust to be forgotten.

I wouldn't mind an ability that temporarily gives slightly higher vet bonuses to Wehr units, although I am definitely for potential counter-play by either making the vet bonus targets more vulnerable, making the ability have a somewhat significant price tag, or both.

Not much to say about the Soviet Industry idea. I think it could work pretty well, though maybe it could cost a little more mp? It is good that you made sure to offer the counter-play option of destroying a cache or capturing a fuel point, though I wonder if in a team game when a teammate captures a fuel point while this ability is in use and then the enemy decaps it if it'd cancel the ability as well. Maybe you could pick a specific fuel point to give the larger fuel income and caches are affected automatically? Then if either a cache is destroyed or if the selected territory is neutralized the ability stops. Just a thought.

I wish I could offer more helpful feedback on the lowered vet requirement riflemen. My only suggestion is maybe limiting the number that can be on the field at a time to maybe two.

Either way, neat thread, Karbinder. Hope you get some good feedback.

I had an idea a while back for industry- combat engies.
Allow them to "work"
Attach them to a building (like captain) to improve production speeds
Attach to a point to inprove resource gain (kinda like Opel blitz)
This would simulate diverting assets to the front amd also provide a slight manpower reduction (due to non combat troops taking up population)

It could be an engineer upgrade for 100mu or something or a unique call in (like salvage sappers)

This would work really well with the repair stations (having your engies doing other things and not missing out on repair)

Get rid of crew repair and add con PPSH for a muni sink (also mass produced smg) and encourage use of repair stations

Remove kv8 and add t34-85 instead as 2 hard anti infantry tanks is really strange and not having the 85 in a doctrine about soviet production power seems wrong...


For elite troops what about bringing back the veteran sergeant upgrade from vCoH? An extra man on ost squads would be really awesome (he would probably need a luger to not upset the delicate dps balance) he could cost fuel per squad, come with a few abilities and boost exp gain while the model is alive

I have nothing for elite rifles..

In my opinion free vet is as lame as hiding behind emplacements. This kind of play wasn't what COH2 was supposed to be about.

Personally, I think free/accelerated vet is something that absolutely should not be in CoH 2. I'm glad Relic removed all instances of it. The point of the Vet mechanic is to reward players for squad preservation, for keeping early game squads alive for a long time, by making those squads stronger and giving them access to better abilities. A lot of squads are balanced around being viable late-game only with vet for this reason (e.g. Grens). Free vet in any form completely removes this dynamic. Need more anti-infantry late game? Just buy a Vet 3 Gren. That's a solution which makes the game simpler and worse, because you should have had to keep the Gren squad alive for a time to get access to its Vet 3 power. Not to mention, free Vet for some factions but not others makes the game very weirdly asymmetric.

Also, all three of the doctrines you name are viable in their current forms. They just aren't as dominant (read: OP) as they were before.

Replace Flamethrower passive with Assault Riflemen, 4 man Rifle squad with carbines that can upgrade to Flamers. No AT snare, cooked grenade.

Replace Flamethrower passive with Assault Riflemen, 4 man Rifle squad with carbines that can upgrade to Flamers. No AT snare, cooked grenade.

All I want out of Elite Rifles.

Because REs with flamers is so friggin' borrrrrinnnnggg

Replace Fire Up with cavalry rifles equipped Thompson upgrade and fire-up, but no 'nades (?)

Make Storms more expensive in MP and scale their upgrades to match their high prices, give em ober K98s stock, you now have "proper" elite troops for Elite Troops.

Link the original Soviet Industry to a cargo truck. Set the cargo truck on a fuel point and gain the original production speed + MP for fuel, but at a rate that isn't shooting yourself in the foot. Perhaps also allow for MP for munis trade if placed on a muni point? Soviet industry now has an actual counter (as if picking it before wasn't counter enough) which was Relic's concern.

Make Storms more expensive in MP and scale their upgrades to match their high prices, give em ober K98s stock, you now have "proper" elite troops for Elite Troops.

I really dunno if Storms can get much more expensive without having to be like release Obers (gameplay silliness we're best avoiding) to be balanced. For example, assuming Obers are balanced at their 400 MP cost (which is probably too much right now, but that's another story for another time), then Storms would require a similar initial cost and then have to pay more for their infiltration, and infiltrating Falls cost 380 + 60 MP without an upgrade which and most people still find to still be overpriced...

Fortunately, Storms currently have a 0.05 greater target size than Obers to counteract that a bit, but nonetheless, I think Storms would be best with their price range not being raised and other things be done to improve their performance in total. Ober Kar98Ks alone would already be pretty neat. Perhaps reduce the cost of their upgrades and allow it to upgrade while not in allied territory (their Panzerschreck could frankly use a significant buff - 30 more munitions for double the firepower on PGs or another man and saving 90 MP for VGs definitely beats 0.05 target size. I'd say to give them a special ambush bonus that would make their Panzerschreck's shots more accurate and reload faster). I'm quite for giving them a better decap rate which would obviously fit their role. Field First Aid is definitely the absolute worst on them out of all the Wehrmacht units and it would be fitting for it to be changed to passive self-healing out of combat.

Replacing the 'Soviet Industry' (now the allied supply drop) ability with ZiS-6 trucks would be a viable option. Instead of an opel clone, it could probably cost more, but provide slightly more resources. Opel clones would still be always welcome to the discussion.

'Troop Training' on the other hand would probably be a targeted ability, where the squad is slightly more vulnerable to gunfire, but they gain vet much faster. Still has the 80 MP 15 Fuel cost, and most likely the 'Mark Target' icon above them. Either that or make stormtroopers viable to Elite Troops without ruining the Encirclement doctrine.

'Vet Riflemen', probably going to be sticking to the idea of them being normal riflemen except they have a lowered vet requirement, while also costing more. (It's the only thing I can think of without replacing the entire unit.)

What if vet riflemen are just rifles with slightly better stats?

What if vet riflemen are just rifles with slightly better stats?

It would kind of take away the purpose of them even being called 'Vet Riflemen.' Making an entirely different unit is optional, but I'd consider it an option only if there isn't a suitable vet-related replacement.