Sturmpioneers - Uberpioneers

Sturmpioneer as a unit is fine, it's very counterable but what I don't get is why the sturms and sappers have a better repair speed than the other factions.

How do you counter Sturms as the UKF?

How do you counter Sturms as the UKF?

use the thing that okw doesnt have
mg

Sturmpioneer as a unit is fine, it's very counterable but what I don't get is why the sturms and sappers have a better repair speed than the other factions.

Sturms have a higher cost and popcap to more or less justify it (the repair truck is what I'd take issue with). RoyEs, are just imba.

Maybe I don't understand something, but why top-engineer unit (fastest reapair speed + repair upgrade) is also such a good close and middle combat unit, which is able in T0 and works, as first unit of OKW? Isn't that too much for just one "engineer" unit?

They are not so much a good close and middle combat unit, but they are the ONLY unit the OKW has that can perform this role. They pretty much need this since they have no non-doctrinal HMGs to help deal with infantry. And they aren't exactly super units either, you buy them because you need people to repair, build wire and mines, and lesser priority, salvage stuff.

I know, that it cost a lot (300 MP), but it is also questionable point - soviet sturms costs 390 MP (and 2 CP doctrine), and they are only better, than sturmpios in close, and lose in mid-combat, but they can't build, repair put medboxes and do a lot of other stuff. Why sturmpios are so universal!?

It is nt a questionable point, they cost a lot, so they aren't even common, even less commonly committed troops. Shocks can be deployed independent of training queue; if you build Sturmpioniers you cannot build Racketen, Kubel, HQ trucks or Volks. And they take a while. Sturmpioniers are hardly universal, stop exaggerating.

Engineers of all other factions are 10 times worse, they usualy can't into effective combat, like soviet or ostheer engineers, rear echelons are totally broken and only able to carry zooks and lose them, nobody cares, that "Volley fire" doesn't work right. Only UK's engieers can be same good, as OKW's, but even they need for that UK's T3, side upgrade and 70 muni on repair pack + 1 MG + armor. OKW engineers are dangerous from the very start, and that's not normal.

Engineers in other factions can do other things, Soviets can lay demo charges, RETs can suppress and like Sappers, can buy weapons from racks, the worst engineer unit IMO is Ostheer's pioniers, which have none of these advantages. You're not even supposed to compare them with Sturmpioniers outside of utility.

I suggest to save their cool repair abilities, but cut their firepower by giving them another guns from start. Maybe MP-41 (should be little better, than loosy MP-40), maybe MKb 42. with way lesser accuracy on them... I think it's possible to find some options here.

I don't see how this would make any difference, even if for some reason you rely heavily on Sturmpioniers for anything other than repairing stuff. For their cost, cost to reinforce, upkeep and time to train, they need to be good for a 4-man squad well into late-game. And they're not even that good, certainly not way better. People say OKW factions is the worst out there and if they're right, the last thing the faction needs is not only another nerf, but one that affects their utility and starting unit.

And also I suggest to give to Sturmpios upgrade, which will be able after T1. With that upgrade they will get back their STGs, but will lose all abilities to repair and build and will turn into normal close-mid combat unit. And maybe - give them HP boost with upgrade, for to make them more effective in that.

No one's going to support this idea because no one will ever use it. Why upgrade to shitty Panzergrenadiers and lose the ability to repair? It's not like they can assault positions AND repair at the same time. They already have to choose between repair and close combat, and given the other OKW units they are most often kept as repair guys, because they cost so much time and manpower to get and keep. What you want to happen already exists.

So, OKW will be free to choose between engineer unit and close combat unit. It's really more, than all other factions have.

This is not being free to choose, it's shoehorning. Right now it is free to choose, but with already stringent consequences. You cannot field many Sturmpioniers at a time, so naturally they have to be good enough to do repairs and fight like two or more squads from Allied factions.

P.S. Why not to give to ALL engineers of all factions upgrade, which will boost their repair abilities? Because Ostheer, Soviet and US engieers are veeeeery slow in repairing. In late that slowness make hurt you hard.

They already do, it's called veterancy. Sturmpioniers have the fastest repair rate...but oly if you buy the upgrade AND have them at vet2, which is a rarity once you get vehicles out or the enemy starts plowing at your HQ trucks. The more time you spend flanking the enemy the less durable your vehicles and base gets. The more time you spend repairing the less time you have to get vet2 before wiped by units.

Besides, UKF Sappers have best repair rate. Sturmpioniers are only second best once you get them to vet2 and have them upgraded. Real problem is that vanilla factions have sucky repair rate AND combat ability; USF and British for their part at least have ways to make up for their repair guys being shitty. Sturmpioniers however have no such benefits and are thus forced to be good from the start, especially given no transport or HMG unit to build.

"use the thing that okw doesnt have
mg"

In which case all the other OKW squads just use the thing that UKF doesn't have, grenades, flame ones in particular.

"use the thing that okw doesnt have
mg"

In which case all the other OKW squads just use the thing that UKF doesn't have, grenades, flame ones in particular.

and they do use them no one cry for vicker nerf

how do you counter l2p issue? Not posting here because when you say somethign like that you are the dumb badass

"and they do use them no one cry for vicker nerf"

Why would they? The Vickers doesn't counter Axis infantry, it kills but doesn't suppress in time to prevent a garrison being taken. If OKW want ground early game they take it for the loss of a couple of models. Regular as clockwork. Just wander up, chuck the nade before being pinned ( the free tech one that costs bugger all - sorry maybe I should narrow it down more than that).

It's like playing rock, paper, scissors when you only have scissors.

OKW get a free starting unit which is almost as powerful as the UKF's best doctrinal infantry yet costs 2/3 as much and scales way beyond it. It beats the UKF's mainline infantry in it's most favourable position ( and that's before the Vet wipey grenade which even takes out Vet 3 IS easily, how much does the stun cost by the way?), pisses on it's equivalent unit and can repair and heal.

No need to L2P when you have it piss easy I guess.

"and they do use them no one cry for vicker nerf"

Why would they? The Vickers doesn't counter Axis infantry, it kills but doesn't suppress in time to prevent a garrison being taken. If OKW want ground early game they take it for the loss of a couple of models. Regular as clockwork. Just wander up, chuck the nade before being pinned ( the free tech one that costs bugger all - sorry maybe I should narrow it down more than that).

It's like playing rock, paper, scissors when you only have scissors.

OKW get a free starting unit which is almost as powerful as the UKF's best doctrinal infantry yet costs 2/3 as much and scales way beyond it. It beats the UKF's mainline infantry in it's most favourable position ( and that's before the Vet wipey grenade which even takes out Vet 3 IS easily, how much does the stun cost by the way?), pisses on it's equivalent unit and can repair and heal.

No need to L2P when you have it piss easy I guess.

I don't understand what's your point in this topic mg counter sturm as ukf

"I don't understand what's your point in this topic mg counter sturm as ukf"

And how many OKW players build nothing but Sturms? If they are kind enough to let me know beforehand then sure a steady stream of Vickers will pour out of my T1.

Until I tested them I didn't realise how powerful they are - or by extension how poorly most OKW players use them.

Listen I have no issue with one of the factions being an easy game, a nubbins faction if you like. Some of us like a challenge and whether Brits were uber powerful or utter crap ( And they were!) I'd still be playing them. Lots of 13 year olds out there don't see things that way and are merely drawn to whatever happens to be the easiest, and I suspect whoever has the sexiest boots. Not my thing, I'm married thanks. Again, all fine and dandy by me though - just keep it in your bedroom.

With Vet fixed however the game has changed somewhat and some of the little perks that OKW have enjoyed are now a bit..... Too perky. Want me to test Vet 4 / 5 Sturms against Vet 3 Commandos?

"I don't understand what's your point in this topic mg counter sturm as ukf"

And how many OKW players build nothing but Sturms? If they are kind enough to let me know beforehand then sure a steady stream of Vickers will pour out of my T1.

Until I tested them I didn't realise how powerful they are - or by extension how poorly most OKW players use them.

Listen I have no issue with one of the factions being an easy game, a nubbins faction if you like. Some of us like a challenge and whether Brits were uber powerful or utter crap ( And they were!) I'd still be playing them. Lots of 13 year olds out there don't see things that way and are merely drawn to whatever happens to be the easiest, and I suspect whoever has the sexiest boots. Not my thing, I'm married thanks. Again, all fine and dandy by me though - just keep it in your bedroom.

With Vet fixed however the game has changed somewhat and some of the little perks that OKW have enjoyed are now a bit..... Too perky. Want me to test Vet 4 / 5 Sturms against Vet 3 Commandos?

Yes please go ahead and test it and post that video here. And while we nubs try to understand how things work and your point of view, would you care posting your playercard here? Thanks.

I had to create this account and post here, because I couldn't hold it anymore reading so much bullshit even frome arguably "knowledgeable" players (you can tell most are a bunch of axis fanboys ofc).

Are you guys for real?
Sturms cost a lot to reinforce?

Sturms gets killed by Conscripts? (circumstances that allow this aren't common)
Sturms isn't a good engineer unit or good at rushing?
They die fast??
They doesn't scale well in late game?
How dishonest axis players have to be, after illegitimately claiming that okw is the weakest factions.
You guys must be crazy.

Yes, Sturms aren't OP, but in the actual state they give an unfair advantage to okw players, in 1v1 where they are allowed:

-To rush in mostly every map and win against any unit.
-Occupy houses for a long time period and gain cover bonus, plus they can be good at mid range from it.
-Kill you even when you shelter in house, they have the DPS advantage.


The problem here is making sturms the base unit, the one they start with without having to spend extra mp.
This is simple bullshit, the actual meta for every okw player is rush to every places, because they know their unit is stronger than any other early infantry, and while in-house it's even worse (specially for USF).

If your conscript isn't in green cover before encountering a sturm, you lose, and even then whenever they come close to you, you have to retreat.
Getting shelter doesn't help as sheltered cons vs sturms(in close range) = sturms win, in what world is this balanced?
The only units so far able to do this at 0 vet are shocks and obersoldaten.

This is insane for a base unit with 300mp.

If you don't blob 2 to 3 inf squads against a sturm in house, you lost, but then again you lose time that you can use to cap territory (the okw will capture instead).

Basically it's huge reward, no risk.

In certain maps it's just yolo, you lose from the moment you're stuck at your base and can't cap that one point that links to the others.

"I don't understand what's your point in this topic mg counter sturm as ukf"

And how many OKW players build nothing but Sturms? If they are kind enough to let me know beforehand then sure a steady stream of Vickers will pour out of my T1.

Until I tested them I didn't realise how powerful they are - or by extension how poorly most OKW players use them.

Listen I have no issue with one of the factions being an easy game, a nubbins faction if you like. Some of us like a challenge and whether Brits were uber powerful or utter crap ( And they were!) I'd still be playing them. Lots of 13 year olds out there don't see things that way and are merely drawn to whatever happens to be the easiest, and I suspect whoever has the sexiest boots. Not my thing, I'm married thanks. Again, all fine and dandy by me though - just keep it in your bedroom.

With Vet fixed however the game has changed somewhat and some of the little perks that OKW have enjoyed are now a bit..... Too perky. Want me to test Vet 4 / 5 Sturms against Vet 3 Commandos?

Look man I don't understand why you have to replay like a fan boy I play all faction apart SU (mostly ost) and I find the game challenging with all I manage to win even late game with US what I was saying is if you have problems with early strum vikers deal with them just fine they don't nade and are a 4 men unless you get flanked they get destroyed
They get such a strong unit to rush because the lack of mg to def any position

As a matter of fact, OKW is simply the best early game faction having a huge superiority over Allied factions.

Superior starting unit: Sturm
Superior capping unit (fast and doesn't bleed MP if you don't let it die): Kubel
Good mainly infantry that doesn't suffer any weaknesses vs any other mainline infantry: volks
Early hard AT if required
Free healing with T1
Free unlock shreck/flamnade with T1/T2

How does it translates in hard values? Any game I play vs OKW, unless I completely outclass him, it is impossible for me to match his army value for the first 7-8 minutes. Check it after any of your games vs OKW, if the early game is "balanced", then it means you'll match his army value around 7 minutes.



In this game, I went 4xRM + Capt and he build a kubel as 1st or 2nd unit, I took the edge much before 7 minutes but still he had the best early game army value.
if you look closer to the lines, you see that my line almost never goes down while his line drops many times indicating fights he lost vs me, losing models.

7 minutes is a lot of time in a match, it is more or less the moment the stuart hit the field.

Sturmpio are not OP but the way the early faction is design make them OP, they are incredibly cheap for their purpose. Can you imagine they only cost 300mp while RM cost 280 and they are no match for them unless you decide to cross a large area of red cover.
Now let's look at 280mp RM vs 260mp Volks, do you see the result of the matchup so evidently, not at all. The gap between both units is much more lower than RM vs STP.

As many people mentioned it before, STP is a starting unit while RM is not. This means you can rush any point you want with your STP and you'll get there before RM. So you are in the house or in green cover before the RM squad, there is no red cover to cross so mentioning the fact STP is a close range unit is pretty much irrelevant early game. At the same time REs are not match and in 99% of the time can't stand at all vs STP.
So in fact, the real matchup with STP is vs RE (for USF) because this is mostly to be the 1st engagement your have, at your fuel or cutoff. How do you stand vs STP with only your RE? You don't, you have to wait till you have your RM while he cap his side with a 15% capping bonus time...

So the next question that comes in mind is how does OKW performs mid and late game? Is OKW underperforming after that?
The answer is no, we all know that, mid game shreck spam + luch/Pz4 and late game with the best stock units available.

I have been thinking of how to make it more balanced and honestly it is complicated. Some people have the idea to switch the Kubel with Sturm but I'm not sure if it is a good solution.
In my opinion more than that, one of those, ST, VLKS or Kubel should go T1 to reduce the overpowering effect of OKW early game. This or nerfing some of those unit stats.

When I grow I want to be a Sturmpioneer!

Storm Pioneers are perfectly fine as they are. ProKW doesn't have anything to help them with defence until later, and the only other infantry they have are Volks which get stomped on by every other mainline infantry.

I played a lot of the Russian faction and it's fairly easy to win early engagements as long as you're maneuvering between cover, and not trying to engage Storm engineers out of cover.

The only fault with Storm Pioneers as far as i'm concerned is the repair speed; you usually only have 1 Pioneer in the field, and a fair number of vehicles. There's been countless matches where i'm unable to repair my vehicles before the enemy has all of theirs repaired and proceeds to push, so it'd be nice if repair speed was increased a bit.

Storm Pioneers are perfectly fine as they are. ProKW doesn't have anything to help them with defence until later, and the only other infantry they have are Volks which get stomped on by every other mainline infantry.

I played a lot of the Russian faction and it's fairly easy to win early engagements as long as you're maneuvering between cover, and not trying to engage Storm engineers out of cover.

If this was even remotely true.
Then why does the general meta is to rush early with Sturms while volks cap the map?

Get real, what you say has been proven to be false all the time, sturms can just rush to you, cover or no cover by the second they are at your squad's foot, the damage trade isn't equally balanced for an early unit.


Sturms should not be avalaible from start, period.

Yes, Sturms aren't OP,

All you had to say right there.

The meta involving them right now makes them op when they are not in a normal setting.