The problem with LT is that his tier has nothing against light vehicles. (The AA HT is no counter, just an equal, like a sherman isn't a counter to a P4). The 50 cal should be a semi-hard counter to 222s and luchs. This solves the LT balance problem. It shouldn't be devastating either, of course.
Do keep in mind that the 50 cal was designed to kill tanks originally. Of course, not the kind of tanks in ww2, but tanks that were about as well armored as a luchs or a 222.
The 50 already sucks. It needs a buff anyway. Role expansion that covers the LT's weakness is the answer.
50 cal should be a vehicle killer
14 Mar 2016, 21:04 PM
#1
Posts: 395
I bought vCoH on January 3rd, 2007.
Still missing the days of vCoH 1.71. It had it's issues, like paks sniping 57s, and the strafe didn't work, but overall, it was probably the most balanced time in CoH history.
OF ruined that. CoH 2 is....balanced in a nasty way. Everyone has an equal stockpile of gamebreaking bullshit. USA is full of early game BS while the OKW doesn't get its BS until late game. It's just a question of how badly you exploit the faction's shit and how quickly, after a patch, you discover the gaping holes of bullshit Relic leaves. But either way, it's all BS. The only "BS" in vCoH that was gamechanging was the fast m8 vs a bunker.
Still missing the days of vCoH 1.71. It had it's issues, like paks sniping 57s, and the strafe didn't work, but overall, it was probably the most balanced time in CoH history.
OF ruined that. CoH 2 is....balanced in a nasty way. Everyone has an equal stockpile of gamebreaking bullshit. USA is full of early game BS while the OKW doesn't get its BS until late game. It's just a question of how badly you exploit the faction's shit and how quickly, after a patch, you discover the gaping holes of bullshit Relic leaves. But either way, it's all BS. The only "BS" in vCoH that was gamechanging was the fast m8 vs a bunker.
14 Mar 2016, 21:06 PM
#2
Posts: 1096
maybe different attack roles? so it has to change between damaging armour and being a suppression platform.
14 Mar 2016, 21:10 PM
#3
Posts: 395
It currently isn't much of a suppression platform. Another idea to buff it is to make it partially ignore cover (since those big fucking bullets aren't going to be stopped by most green cover)
I bought vCoH on January 3rd, 2007.
Still missing the days of vCoH 1.71. It had it's issues, like paks sniping 57s, and the strafe didn't work, but overall, it was probably the most balanced time in CoH history.
OF ruined that. CoH 2 is....balanced in a nasty way. Everyone has an equal stockpile of gamebreaking bullshit. USA is full of early game BS while the OKW doesn't get its BS until late game. It's just a question of how badly you exploit the faction's shit and how quickly, after a patch, you discover the gaping holes of bullshit Relic leaves. But either way, it's all BS. The only "BS" in vCoH that was gamechanging was the fast m8 vs a bunker.
Still missing the days of vCoH 1.71. It had it's issues, like paks sniping 57s, and the strafe didn't work, but overall, it was probably the most balanced time in CoH history.
OF ruined that. CoH 2 is....balanced in a nasty way. Everyone has an equal stockpile of gamebreaking bullshit. USA is full of early game BS while the OKW doesn't get its BS until late game. It's just a question of how badly you exploit the faction's shit and how quickly, after a patch, you discover the gaping holes of bullshit Relic leaves. But either way, it's all BS. The only "BS" in vCoH that was gamechanging was the fast m8 vs a bunker.
14 Mar 2016, 21:11 PM
#4
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
maybe different attack roles? so it has to change between damaging armour and being a suppression platform.
So we give the US another unit that they need to pop the ability/toggle on for it to be able fight certain things? Jacksons w/ HVAP, 57s w/ HVAP, Shermans with HE/AP, and now .50s with a toggle of some sort. The biggest toggle choice and axis player needs to make is to put away a minesweeper or not.
How about we just make the most expensive and latest arriving mg in the game good? Would that be too much to ask?
14 Mar 2016, 21:22 PM
#5
Posts: 1096
So we give the US another unit that they need to pop the ability/toggle on for it to be able fight certain things? Jacksons w/ HVAP, 57s w/ HVAP, Shermans with HE/AP, and now .50s with a toggle of some sort. The biggest toggle choice and axis player needs to make is to put away a minesweeper or not.
How about we just make the most expensive and latest arriving mg in the game good? Would that be too much to ask?
hey I'm all up for that.
What I was suggesting though was two roles that deal very high damage to their designated targets rather than making it a Dshka clone.
14 Mar 2016, 21:25 PM
#6
Posts: 1891
IMO it should be able to deny areas to light vehicles and slow them down, like Guards.
45 muni button ability
45 muni button ability
The Fascisti Will Pay.
14 Mar 2016, 21:31 PM
#7
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
How about giving it an engine crit ability? Like a sustained burst ability that when used against light vehicles above 75% health it crew shocks, when below 75% it can crit. The chance percentages would have to be messed with.
My thought process here is that it won't do crazy damage to light vehicles, but that it would deter them from getting too close, like dancing an m20 around the faust range of gren squad.
Edit: Similar to what beefsurge suggested, just saw your post.
My thought process here is that it won't do crazy damage to light vehicles, but that it would deter them from getting too close, like dancing an m20 around the faust range of gren squad.
Edit: Similar to what beefsurge suggested, just saw your post.
14 Mar 2016, 21:57 PM
#8
Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2
How about giving it same AP round like HMG42? But still would be worse cause of RoF.
14 Mar 2016, 22:05 PM
#9
Posts: 609
Yeah, enough AP to soft-counter light vehicles is the way to go for sure.
14 Mar 2016, 22:07 PM
#10
Posts: 656
Could just flatly buff the pen on the .50. Right now it has a pen of 2 while the Kubel has an armor of 4.5 and the 222 has an armor of 9. This means that it's only doing about 44% it's normal dps to a Kubel and 22% to a 222. Since the average dps of the .50 is 18.2 this means it isn't killing any light vehicles in a timely manner atm.
Another option that could help would be to increase range of the .50 by 5. Currently it has a range of 45 and as a result is prone to being rifle naded to death. If it could fire from further out (50+ range) it would be more effective at locking down infantry outside of rifle nade range and would reward scouting by the US player. This would also be historically accurate since the .50 had a longer range than lower caliber mgs.
Lastly you could just increase the crew to 5 men as that would help with the survivability issues the MG suffers from.
Another option that could help would be to increase range of the .50 by 5. Currently it has a range of 45 and as a result is prone to being rifle naded to death. If it could fire from further out (50+ range) it would be more effective at locking down infantry outside of rifle nade range and would reward scouting by the US player. This would also be historically accurate since the .50 had a longer range than lower caliber mgs.
Lastly you could just increase the crew to 5 men as that would help with the survivability issues the MG suffers from.
14 Mar 2016, 22:30 PM
#11
Posts: 747 | Subs: 2
Could just flatly buff the pen on the .50. Right now it has a pen of 2 while the Kubel has an armor of 4.5 and the 222 has an armor of 9. This means that it's only doing about 44% it's normal dps to a Kubel and 22% to a 222. Since the average dps of the .50 is 18.2 this means it isn't killing any light vehicles in a timely manner atm.
Another option that could help would be to increase range of the .50 by 5. Currently it has a range of 45 and as a result is prone to being rifle naded to death. If it could fire from further out (50+ range) it would be more effective at locking down infantry outside of rifle nade range and would reward scouting by the US player. This would also be historically accurate since the .50 had a longer range than lower caliber mgs.
Lastly you could just increase the crew to 5 men as that would help with the survivability issues the MG suffers from.
This is just too much constructive feedback. Let's suggest something we can have meaningless discussions and forum wars about:
I suggest a penetration increase to 20, moving it to t0, price decrease aaaaannnd Pershing that comes with every recruited MG.
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14 Mar 2016, 22:34 PM
#12
Posts: 232
A while back I mentioned the .50 cal not really being like a .50 cal. Another member (firesparks maybe?) mentioned that it's more a stand in for the M1919A6(?) machine gun. It would certainly make more sense that way with its current stats.
I'd certainly back making it more of a threat to light vehicles though.
I'd certainly back making it more of a threat to light vehicles though.
14 Mar 2016, 22:42 PM
#13
Posts: 466
Give it AP rounds it deserves it
1. Relic bans, not me. 2. It stands in the rules: If you are banned more often, the duration increase and can lead in the end to permaban 3. The Case is bigger as you guys think. So pls step 1 step away pls. 4. I am not a player in the 4vs4 cup, because of RL work.
14 Mar 2016, 22:50 PM
#14
Posts: 199
Voting for the straight up pen buff, no toggle, it just has it standard it is an ok MG but locked behind a undesirable tier.
Unlike the UFK which has impressive damage but reduced suppression this one should have improved pen.
Unlike the UFK which has impressive damage but reduced suppression this one should have improved pen.
14 Mar 2016, 22:54 PM
#15
Posts: 88
Good suggestion, but only if we nerf Rifles in the process. You cant have the cake AND eat it.
14 Mar 2016, 23:12 PM
#16
Posts: 181
Good suggestion, but only if we nerf Rifles in the process. You cant have the cake AND eat it.
How is this suggestion related to Riflemen? The purpose of this thread is to buff the supposedly under-used 50cal and to address the LT tier's lack of AT weaponry since it is also supposedly underused. Surely Riflemen would be entirely unchanged by this?
I'm sorry if I'm missing something obvious, I don't really play USF.
I think a good rule for balance suggestions is this:
"If you can't personally mod it in and you haven't met anyone who has, don't suggest it."
"If you can't personally mod it in and you haven't met anyone who has, don't suggest it."
14 Mar 2016, 23:14 PM
#17
Posts: 656
Good suggestion, but only if we nerf Rifles in the process. You cant have the cake AND eat it.
The issue with that line of thinking is that the .50 is locked behind an optional tier of tech. Since USF tech is designed under the assumption that the player will skip either LT or Captain tier it means the player won't have access to the .50 half of the time. In turn you cannot balance a core unit based on the assumption that the .50 will always be present.
Think about it a different way. If the USF player went LT tier for a .50 then no pack howie is likely to make an appearance unless he delays his armor significantly. That itself is enough trade-off for a functional .50 imo.
14 Mar 2016, 23:32 PM
#18
Posts: 88
The issue with that line of thinking is that the .50 is locked behind an optional tier of tech. Since USF tech is designed under the assumption that the player will skip either LT or Captain tier it means the player won't have access to the .50 half of the time. In turn you cannot balance a core unit based on the assumption that the .50 will always be present.
Think about it a different way. If the USF player went LT tier for a .50 then no pack howie is likely to make an appearance unless he delays his armor significantly. That itself is enough trade-off for a functional .50 imo.
The shock value of the M20 is already enough of a reason to go for Lt, no need to make the other unlocks even better. Also no unit exists in a vacuum. Rif... Terminators already wreck any other infantry from the moment they hit the field. No need to give USF more options to look down parts of the map. They are also designed to be a mobile army, so the current 50cal is fine and fills its intended role. It is a decent unit for a decent price. If you want BETTER AT go Captain.
14 Mar 2016, 23:40 PM
#19
Posts: 88
How is this suggestion related to Riflemen? The purpose of this thread is to buff the supposedly under-used 50cal and to address the LT tier's lack of AT weaponry since it is also supposedly underused. Surely Riflemen would be entirely unchanged by this?
I'm sorry if I'm missing something obvious, I don't really play USF.
No unit exists in a vacuum, if you change one unit you change other units indirectly. So no this is very much related to riflemen because they are the core unit of USF. This is especially true for infantry SUPPORT weapons like mgs which are meant to stay behind your frontline and support your fighting squads. USF allready has free AT nades (Terminators vet insanely fast because they wreck evrything).
The Op wants the 50Cal to deny parts of the map to light infantry which is not necessary because terminators already do that. USF is not supposed to dig in, they are designed to be a mobile army and therefor current 50Cal is fine. If USF wants better support weapons the only choice is to make terminators less good. So take away Rifles AT nate and we can talk about a vehicle "killer" mg.
14 Mar 2016, 23:47 PM
#20
Posts: 199
The Op wants the 50Cal to deny parts of the map to light infantry which is not necessary because terminators already do that. USF is not supposed to dig in, they are designed to be a mobile army and therefor current 50Cal is fine. If USF wants better support weapons the only choice is to make terminators less good. So take away Rifles AT nate and we can talk about a vehicle "killer" mg.
The OP wants the 50 cal to be able to deter LV's because a certain tier at the moment has no AT options. Deter being the key word here. Your suggestion makes no sense of taking away the AT nades from riflemen, it would be the same as take away the faust from the OH grenadiers because the MG42 has the AT rounds at Vet1 but worse because you also have mines without the need for picking a commander.
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