Russians get the greatest AT & ARTY gun out of T1?

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I fail to see the problem. Plus you took almost every use of the word "your" out of context, as it was referring to someones micro rather than faction preference. If you want to see an actual biased post, refer back to this.

P4s are already spammable and actually work consistently against infantry. That's a terrible idea.

Barrage is 60 munitions, which alot early game and quite expensive for something that is easy enough to dodge. There are much better arty options that don't cost nearly as much.

Oh ok, I missed the part where flamers, DPs, at nades, mollys and mines are free. Faust cost is fine for what it brings. The Soviets would happily spend munitions on things like shreks/flamesniperHT/bunkers if they had the equivalent -- which they don't.

1) Panzer 4's are spammable and consistent against infantry, but: the German player must pay for two tier escalations, most likely both T2 and T3 buildings as well(skipping T2 right now is suicide). It has weaker frontal armor, weaker AT and much reduced sight radius. That's fine, the SU-85 is a tank destroyer. However, the SU-85 is significantly cheaper than the PIV, so by your admission, the SU-85 is just as spammable as the PIV. And let me tell you: in pairs, it will kill off infantry quite effectively, from a very safe distance, including pak's.

2)Lets say Barrage is 60 munitions. I've seen decent Soviet players reach the time when SU-85's come out, with an excess of 230 munitions. 60 means nothing to them. In fact, if those 60 munitions neutralize an MG42 or even hit an enemy teller mine, your money was well spent and actually returns a theoretical profit. That's an ATG getting a profit from killing infantry crews and mines.

3) Soviets don't really need flamers. They can go that route, yes, but sniper scout cars are fine, too, if you want to dip into the manpower solution. AT nades are a soft counter, and guards can fill that slot too. Many pro players successfully do not incorporate molotovs into their strategy: They are pretty predictable and delay your access to vehicles. Vehicles like the T70, T34 and SU-85. All of which have a very good efficiency if they hit the battlefield early. These strategies did not require a single point of munitions spent. All manpower. Mines are good, but the size and design of the maps also makes them very situational. No guarantee a smart player using a Flamer HT will hit the mine in that chokepoint.

Im not saying Soviets don't need munitions. There's moments where using munitions is more efficient than getting guards, and molotovs may have helped you disoldge those grens from a small building, but the Soviet army does not depend on munitions whatsoever.

I'd like to see a german player neglect fausts against scout cars. Im not even going to detail recon runs, medic bunker upgrades, smoke dischargers, etc.

The problem is they are so cheap and can deal one on one with a panther that cost almost double. And they are insanely fast in reverse and will shoot with near perfect accuracy driving backwards. They don't need a turret when they can just speed reverse and turn toward target and rarely miss. After the p4 speed nerf it impossible to circle it with less than 2 p4s unless you have the blitz ability. The one tank that can deal with it costs twice as much and will lose most of its health fighting one. Unless that panther was early its very likely by the time it comes out there will be more than one su 85. And 2 su 85s will eat everything short of an elefant for breakfast

Considering the fact that they are tank destroyers and are practically useless vs anything else i find them being able to effectively kill tanks, even tanks that are more expensive than them perfectly fine. P4's do a good job of killing infantry, same with the panther.

I would like to add that the game is not played in a vacum and there are lots of ways to get around the 85 problem.

IMO it is fine and if you would like to nerf the SU-85 then i would like to hear your suggestions as how to compensate the Soviets in dealing with heavy armour as it stands the su 85 is the only thing capable of doing it.

Reduce it's armour to the same as the Elephants, bugger all.

Reduce it's armour to the same as the Elephants, bugger all.

i hope that was sarcasm. the elephant has 400 main armour and 150 rear. To put that into perspective a Panther has 270 and 112.7 repsectivly


Please give the SU-85 400 main armour 150 back, a large jump from from 180 80

Oh sorry, i meant Buff it to the same Level as the Elephant. For balance purposes obviously.

Considering the fact that they are tank destroyers and are practically useless vs anything else i find them being able to effectively kill tanks, even tanks that are more expensive than them perfectly fine. P4's do a good job of killing infantry, same with the panther.

I would like to add that the game is not played in a vacum and there are lots of ways to get around the 85 problem.

IMO it is fine and if you would like to nerf the SU-85 then i would like to hear your suggestions as how to compensate the Soviets in dealing with heavy armour as it stands the su 85 is the only thing capable of doing it.

Like I said. Leave the statistics alone, increase the price to be in between a PIV and a Panther. It should be the ultimate expression of Soviet AT (beside doctrine units, of course), just as the Panther is the Ostheer's ultimate expression of AT.

Like I said. Leave the statistics alone, increase the price to be in between a PIV and a Panther. It should be the ultimate expression of Soviet AT (beside doctrine units, of course), just as the Panther is the Ostheer's ultimate expression of AT.

Then currently that's a really shitty ultimate expression for the Ostheer.

SU85 is a difficult dilemma.

Changing stats or cost, both cause problems in timings and counters.

Cost increase would be justified seeing how effective AT it is vs Osts PIvs and Stugs, BUT not justified vs PIVs utility as AI/ATmat the same cost currently, nor Stugs cheaper cost as the SU85S "little brother".

Changing stats would break it as a Sov armor counter vs invariably armor heavy Ost mid-lategames, and make it underpowered vs compared to the cheaper Stug.

As to its stats, I think its penetration/dmg vs armor is balanced. Its own armor is also balanced.

Overall, Im at a loss what to recommend. Comparatively I think its stats and cost are quite balanced, but from an experiential basis, the SU85 is imo overperforming as a hard AT backline backbone.

I suppose this may be resulting from the fact, that the SU85 is the first Sov armor that basically equals out the armor differential between Sov an Ost both in terms of cost and stats. The natural Ost tier counter is the Panther, but for its cost and for the fact that the SU85 is in and of itself, also a Panther counter, causes problems in tiering.

Ideally it should be infantry that counters the SU85, but dueto the way thr game plays out, getting infantry anywhere near the SU85 requires either the opponent to completely fail flank protection, or a successful armor assault (whixh is negated by reversing SU85s, AT nades crippling engines and intervening T34 Ram support).

I think one soft nerf it could definately use, is to its speed. Simply reversing out of danger while firing from its its superior range while reversing is too effective atm.

The Su85 possibly indicates an overall problem in design, where, innaddition to Sovs infantry superiority, Sovs can start matching Osts supposed lategame aemor superiority in addition to that. In this sense, it should cost more, but that would break the general facrion design that Sov armor is "cheaper and more plentiful".

Something goes wrong in this point in tiering, and Sov starts playing against Ost strengths with equal strength iin those areas of strength. In other words, the assymetric balance of the factions suddenly becomes symmetrical at this point, and it is Sov that gains the Ost supposed strengths as its own, in addition to ot its own inherent earlier strengths in asymetric faction balance.

The main problem with the SU85 is that it provides its own line of sight up to its max range. No other long range unit (bar immobile Elefants and even that could/should be changed) does that.

It lets it use/abuse its first strike bonus from range vs. every German non-Elefant armor even without proper scouting. This ultimately allows its support units to sit much farther back than they had to stay back for supporting other units. This causes the problem that taking out its support units is a lot harder, which otherwise would allow for better flanking opportunities with AT guns/Panzerschrecks/Panzer4s. This in turn would allow for the Panzer4's armor (or other stats) to be adjusted slightly down, which would make the T34 and the Stug more viable.

Because of this I'd suggest changing its focused view ability (and maybe also that of the Elefant, I guess) either to a smaller range
OR make it an ability that has a duration of 10 or so seconds (time for two shots) and costs a medium amount of munitions.

I wouldn't mind seeing the SU85 go up to 130 fuel but in turn so should the PIV. Add to this the T70 should go up 15 fuel too as the PIV at this new cost would put it out as counter to it. If those 3 changes were made I feel it would lead to those units being a tad more balanced towards each other and even give the Germans a bit more time to get a Schrek ready for the T70. It may also give people a choice in going for an alternative cheaper tank (Stug) or even an alternate tier (T34, with a penetration buff too I might add) for Soviets.

I disagree...I think T3 is vital as a Soviet.

My typical build order 3 Conscripts, Maxim, Maxim/Mortar, Guards/Shocks, T70, ZiS, SU-85. I typically skip T1, but will build it and go clown car if I notice heavy MG play. If I'm successful with it, I can usually skip T2 and back-tech if needed.

When my T70 hits the field, there probably aren't any hard counters on the field (maybe schreks but they can be avoided), so I should take a resource advantage at this point. I think this part of the game is key for Soviets to capitalize on. This is when you push the German infantry back, take their fuel, and get aggressive with your MGs. If you go straight to T4, you're forfeiting this opportunity and just asking to be beaten by the superior German armor.

While I'm waiting for the fuel to build T4 and get the SU-85, I dip back into my T2 building and use the surplus manpower to get ZiS as an insurance policy. At a minimum, I should be able to slow down the PIV with AT Nades. Best case, I can finish it off with the ZiS before my SU-85 even hits the field.

As for the SU-85 itself, yeah...it's range might be a little OP. Considering where it and the Pak are meant to engage from, I don't think the Pak is supposed to counter it. Fausts, flanking schrek'd PGrens, and flanking PIVs are the way to go. Don't just drive your PIV straight down the center of the map and get pissed when the SU-85 wrecks it...scout then flank.

I find it hard to disagree with your logic

Su85 is same cost as PIV and its counter, yet fanbois want a PIV matched T34.

Logic? None. Discussion quality regarding balance has taken a real nosedive with the arrival of some posters.

Su85 is same cost as PIV and its counter, yet fanbois want a PIV matched T34.

Logic? None. Discussion quality regarding balance has taken a real nosedive with the arrival of some posters.

NOBODY said the t34 should match the p4, we simply said that 360 muintions and 95 fuel for a tank thats only purpose is to ram, is ridiculous. I should be able to take out a p4 with two or three t34s without taking 80 percent casualties and without having to ram. The t34 should not have the same armor as the p4, but it needs a penetration buff, or a massive resource cost reduction.

NOBODY said the t34 should match the p4, we simply said that 360 muintions and 95 fuel for a tank thats only purpose is to ram, is ridiculous. I should be able to take out a p4 with two or three t34s without taking 80 percent casualties and without having to ram. The t34 should not have the same armor as the p4, but it needs a penetration buff, or a massive resource cost reduction

You are hilarious.

"T34s only function is to Ram"

L2P.

2 T34s absolutely pwn a single PIV.

Post a replay of your play and show us how you fail with T34s.

You are hilarious.

"T34s only function is to Ram"

L2P.

2 T34s absolutely pwn a single PIV.

Post a replay of your play and show us how you fail with T34s.

LOL two t34s will never beat a p4 unless they ram. and then your shreks with strafe support will finish off my rammed t34 and cover ur wounded one.

And there goes 360 muni and 95 fuel that i could have spent on a proper tank like the su85 that would have done the job and lived to tell about it. Effectivly making the t34 useless and pointless beyond a very expensive suicide tank

Post a replay of your play. I have my popcorn ready for a good laugh.

Post a replay of your play. I have my popcorn ready for a good laugh.

I told u i dont build them since the nerf.... But look around, nobody really does anymore. That should tell you something

If anyone even builds t3 anymore its for the fabulous little t70, who is 100 times more usefull then a t34

Post a replay. If you dont even field them, then your argument falls flat on its ridiculous face.

Only thing that tells me anyhting so far is your fanboisim to an irrational level without any supporting evidence.

Poat a replay of your play.