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russian armor

Useless unit list which need to be changed

24 Feb 2016, 01:14 AM
#41
avatar of Spinflight

Posts: 680

"MMMM, the UC will be a good unit to scout/holdoff kubel for MG since the vickers is more effective with vision. "

Hmmm... Good unit and UC don't often occur in the same sentence... Do I have a volunteer for the UC challenge then? :)

https://www.coh2.org/topic/49238/universal-carrier-challenge
24 Feb 2016, 01:25 AM
#42
avatar of Hans G. Schultz

Posts: 875 | Subs: 2

agree with everything except the ostwind and the SU-85. Flak emplacement could also use some more durability.
24 Feb 2016, 01:55 AM
#43
avatar of Flying Dustbin

Posts: 270 | Subs: 1

Su-85 should probably have a penetration/dmg buff or so.
Currently it has the same pen as the Su-76 or AT gun, but only does 40~ more damage, making it pretty crappy for a tier 4 unit.
Su-76s also are cheaper, come earlier and have a barrage which is decent vs infantry if you have a couple.

The Su-85 has a nice far sight abillity and good vet buffs but why would you get one or two when you could get 3 or 4 Su-76s to smack down armor.
Seems kind of similar to the situation between penals and cons.
24 Feb 2016, 01:58 AM
#44
avatar of easierwithaturret

Posts: 247

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Feb 2016, 01:00 AMGumboot


Against Osth the SU85 is a solid vehicle. Can really offer great support in deterring Tigers and Osth panthers but against the OKW heavies it is lacking. I had a saved game that no longer works of my JT (first time I have used one ever) going to town taking 14 tanks out with one single unit as a screen and a InfaredHT to detect flanks.

The barrage ability the JT gets which I think is designed to take out AT is also very effective vsing tanks and the infaredHT tells you exactly where to put it.


Yeah SU85 struggles when a JT is on the field, but the JT is pretty situational and limited to an otherwise meh doctrine. Outside that specific situation, SU85 does good work against p4 and KT, also being a threat to panthers.
24 Feb 2016, 02:05 AM
#45
avatar of wouren
Senior Social Media Manager Badge

Posts: 1281 | Subs: 3



Actually, after you play USF, you will understand why Flak HT is not that good.

Before OKW was redesigned, Flak HT fuel timing is 40(tier2)+40(cost)-40(start)=40/0.67=60 fuel
When OKW was being redesigned, the first truck can come out immediately, thus OKW flak track cost is increased to 55 fuel.
Now, after push back OKW tier2 because of luch, tier1 was also affected, and the Flak HT fuel timing is 40(tier2)+55(cost)-10(start)= 85 fuel

I notice this when I was still convinced that FlakHT is okay. But after getting outtech by USF, I recheck again and realize why.

Btw, USF HT is 50 fuel only and way superior to OKW.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the halftrack always 55 fuel? that would put us at 82.5 fuel originally of so. Also, is the lieutenant not 50 fuel? If so, (taking your word on the cost of the USF HT) that would be 100 fuel to get that unit.
24 Feb 2016, 02:59 AM
#46
avatar of BrickTop

Posts: 88

maybe add soviet sniper?
24 Feb 2016, 03:10 AM
#47
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

Su-85 imo needs the Jackson treatment (remove its role as an overpriced and then disgustingly OP medium counter and make it something like ALL other factions have- a reliable late game AT unit)
Basicly reduce rof and increase pen maybe even bump to 200 damage (I would also personally like that for the t34-85 and a damage increase for the is-2 as well...)

Flak emplacements could use a buff

I feel that the arty officer could use some updates too, I think ive only seen him when I use it in 4v for his "fuck your emplacements" barrage

Kv2 could use a range buff in camp mode and something in not camp mode too

120mm should do better vs garrisons and buildings (bunkers)

Ostwind needs a bita love too

24 Feb 2016, 03:18 AM
#48
avatar of RedDevilCG

Posts: 154

Does KT and JT vet count for this list?
24 Feb 2016, 07:49 AM
#49
avatar of MATRAKA14

Posts: 118

Soviet sherman comes at CP 10... And its worst than a t34/85.

kv1 is bad.

Dshk is good but it does not fit that well, because its an mg it needs to suppress people, so if you need that you use maxims at 0cp, at the same time is not that good for killing things, and you can not rush it to buildings at the beginning of the match.

Guards could use some help with button and dropeable weapons.

Is2 is mostly fine but it strugles against one single phanter.

Su 85 needs to be a late game sniper, more pen damage and mobility with less fire rate and vet bonus.

T34/85 at t4.

B4 is cool but has animation bugs and just pure RNG, even if you are lucky, it does not perform that well.

Some pop cap values should change.

Soviet mortars feel a bit strange performance wyse compared to leigs and normal oster mortars

Vet abilities are all over the place. flares, cap territory...

Also fuel drop abilities can easily break team games but soviet one is clearly inferior.
Il2 strafes are terrible, specially the single strafe one.
For mother rusia has no sound effect and that makes me sad.
24 Feb 2016, 09:42 AM
#50
avatar of Adviser

Posts: 53

Soviet 120mm mortar now 13 popcap. Need to fix this.
24 Feb 2016, 09:46 AM
#51
avatar of Iron Emperor

Posts: 1653



Yeah SU85 struggles when a JT is on the field, but the JT is pretty situational and limited to an otherwise meh doctrine. Outside that specific situation, SU85 does good work against p4 and KT, also being a threat to panthers.


Jagdtiger vs SU-85 hmm, seems legit that a SU-85 has a hard time vs a Jagdtiger. Doctrinal 720 mp 280 fuel unit vs 340 mp 130 fuel unit.

24 Feb 2016, 09:51 AM
#52
avatar of Iron Emperor

Posts: 1653

Soviet sherman comes at CP 10... And its worst than a t34/85.

Although it comes at 10 CP's, it's not that bad. And it's still a call-in unit

kv1 is bad.

I've seen them doing quite fine actually, perhaps a bit stronger maingun

Dshk is good but it does not fit that well, because its an mg it needs to suppress people, so if you need that you use maxims at 0cp, at the same time is not that good for killing things, and you can not rush it to buildings at the beginning of the match.

Dshk is fine, used it yesterday and raped infantry to the bone with it, also supresses quite nicely

Guards could use some help with button and dropeable weapons.

Agree

Is2 is mostly fine but it strugles against one single phanter.

IS-2 is fine and is evenly matched to a panther in my opinion

Su 85 needs to be a late game sniper, more pen damage and mobility with less fire rate and vet bonus.

seems legit

T34/85 at t4.

will probably never happen

B4 is cool but has animation bugs and just pure RNG, even if you are lucky, it does not perform that well.

Buff B-4 a bit, but please no more B-4 spam

Some pop cap values should change.

Soviet mortars feel a bit strange performance wyse compared to leigs and normal oster mortars

I used the soviet mortars many times and they do really nice

Vet abilities are all over the place. flares, cap territory...

Also fuel drop abilities can easily break team games but soviet one is clearly inferior.
Il2 strafes are terrible, specially the single strafe one.
For mother rusia has no sound effect and that makes me sad.
24 Feb 2016, 09:58 AM
#53
avatar of PencilBatRation

Posts: 794

Su-85 should probably have a penetration/dmg buff or so.
And have its maphack ability and insane ROF removed.
why would you get one or two when you could get 3 or 4 Su-76s
Su76 being OP as fuck is a seprate issue, that doesn't warrant a su85 buff.


Let OST t3 have a small chance of survival and usability.
24 Feb 2016, 10:16 AM
#54
avatar of Looney
Patrion 14

Posts: 444

And have its maphack ability and insane ROF removed.
Su76 being OP as fuck is a seprate issue, that doesn't warrant a su85 buff.


Let OST t3 have a small chance of survival and usability.


People refusing to make a stug to counter the su76, making a p4 instead and then complaining how the su76 is OP are beyond me. Do you even realise how slow it turns?

The su85 is fine as well, not to mention the JP hardcounters it when vetted. Just like the su85 hardcounters tanks when vet 3, because it's a TANKDESTROYER. Ever tried PG's or a pak to keep the su85 at bay?

Ost t3 literally counters Sov t3, which it should, cause ost tanks are more expensive.
24 Feb 2016, 15:01 PM
#55
avatar of whitesky00

Posts: 468

"MMMM, the UC will be a good unit to scout/holdoff kubel for MG since the vickers is more effective with vision. "

Hmmm... Good unit and UC don't often occur in the same sentence... Do I have a volunteer for the UC challenge then? :)

https://www.coh2.org/topic/49238/universal-carrier-challenge


Lol, just because it doesn't vet up well unupgraded doesn't mean it's a bad unit. Bofors almost never goes past 1 vet... is it a bad unit? No, it denies pretty well.

Example: 1 sturms rushes you, by the time you react, your IS and your MG are probably effed. The new UC which has no fuel cost can tank the sturms, and kill models as it rushes towards it while the MG sets up. The UC isn't good right now because of the last patch's pathing upgrade which forces it to go backwards in most cases. As I've previously stated, it's the best mobile garrison clearing unit.
24 Feb 2016, 15:46 PM
#56
avatar of Spinflight

Posts: 680

"Bofors almost never goes past 1 vet... is it a bad unit? No, it denies pretty well. "

Yep, denies, kills and suppresses. The reason it doesn't vet though is due to the fear factor of facing one, it has a pop at a squad and is then either overwhelmed later in the game or ignored.

The UC though has rather low vetting requirements, it doesn't vet because it doesn't kill jack, doesn't deny, doesn't protect squads inside and doesn't really help in any way, other the providing some temporary green cover once it goes up in flames.

Best garrison clearer really? We must be playing different games. Asking a UC to fire on a squad in green cover seems to result in 1 model killed after about 30 seconds. It might distract a garrison but it certainly doesn't clear them.
24 Feb 2016, 18:58 PM
#57
avatar of whitesky00

Posts: 468

"Bofors almost never goes past 1 vet... is it a bad unit? No, it denies pretty well. "

Yep, denies, kills and suppresses. The reason it doesn't vet though is due to the fear factor of facing one, it has a pop at a squad and is then either overwhelmed later in the game or ignored.

The UC though has rather low vetting requirements, it doesn't vet because it doesn't kill jack, doesn't deny, doesn't protect squads inside and doesn't really help in any way, other the providing some temporary green cover once it goes up in flames.

Best garrison clearer really? We must be playing different games. Asking a UC to fire on a squad in green cover seems to result in 1 model killed after about 30 seconds. It might distract a garrison but it certainly doesn't clear them.


Lol, one of these days I'll save a replay for you. I can kill a light vehicle (luchs or something) + 20 kills and still be only at vet 1.

I think you need to share your playercard with me. I can't tell how many games of UKF you have played. You can see mine and I've played quite a bit. Go put a UC versus a garrisoned MG which is the reason why flamers are useful and tell me that it's not useful. How else do you expect UKF to push that MG early game without mortar/smoke. Sniper? Lol. The UC's weakness comes form shrek spam. For 215 mp and future 0 fuel, it performs for its cost. You don't see many now because the fuel cost/tech delay and the horrible pathfinding.

Here's an old video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjpA2rF_AgQ

Now a 215 mp unit will counter another 215? mp unit. Seems perfectly fine to me.
24 Feb 2016, 19:17 PM
#58
avatar of Virtual Boar

Posts: 196

Don't understand all the intense dislike of the flame hetzer, sure it's no croc or KV-8, but it is way cheaper and harder to hit.

It is on level with the UC WASP, it actually requires some thinking and micro. Rather then A move + stufing your face with cheetos at the same time.
24 Feb 2016, 20:13 PM
#59
avatar of Hans G. Schultz

Posts: 875 | Subs: 2

Don't understand all the intense dislike of the flame hetzer, sure it's no croc or KV-8, but it is way cheaper and harder to hit.

It is on level with the UC WASP, it actually requires some thinking and micro. Rather then A move + stufing your face with cheetos at the same time.

It may be harder to hit than other tanks, but paper armor is still a no-no.
24 Feb 2016, 20:16 PM
#60
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

I think we might have a different concept between useless and requiring some slight changes.

SU
M3: it's dread to be a clowncar. I'll say we could match both rear and front MG to do the same damage but i'm not sure what else could be changed.

Katyusha: it makes more sense for it to have suppression rather than the PW which unloads all it's damage on 1 barrage.

T3476: better MGs, rework ram. There are tweaks that are worth trying (double T3476, replacing with 85s, etc)

Su85: changing RoF for penetration wouldn't be bad. Having a different ability than tracking at vet1 should also be good. Heck, if tracking stays, it should track vehicles, not infantry.

M42: make it a pseudo rak. (See mirage mod)

B4: not sure what could be done but i don't think it's BAD.

IL2: i don't want another skillplane but at least it should be worth the muni cost.

You forgot: Assault Guards, 152mm Howitzer, tank traps, Allied supply drop on teamgames (rip with AA HQ), HTD. If we talk about veterancy abilities i could go even further.

I guess i could go own describing each other unit. I'll limit to mention what is left

USF: Medics (allow them to stay still and heal slowly AoE, make it cost muni), IR pathfinder cloak, P47 single strafe run (for cost IMO), 240mm barrage (just make first shell accurate).

UKF: concentration barrage, Perimeter overwatch, antibuilding flame barrage, Forward observation post.

OH: PG performance between vet0 and vet2, Ostwind AA (compared to Centurion), Hulldown (interesting in theory, should reduce a bit construction), LeFH, Riegel, mechanized assault groups (Gren/PG), tank traps, sector artillery, assault Grens scaling, Stormtroopers with AT,

OKW: Valiant assault (i've never been sure if it actually works), Sturm Offizier lacking vet, Panzer commander (specially barrage), Sector Assault.




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