Mortars/Howies: Nerf autoattack, maybe buff barrage

TL;DR:
- Nerf the lethality of mortar/howlitzer autoattack.
- MAYBE buff barrage rate-of-fire/cooldown to compensate.

The micro tax argument

I have the feeling that autoattacking indirect fire units have simply too much wipe potential in this game. Especially so for a no-micro unit.

When you buy 1-2 mortars/leigs/pits you benefit from the following:
- This imposes a micro tax on your opponent, as they have to keep their infantry moving at all times
- This reduces the accuracy of their infantry, as all infantry (apart form shocks) suffers from reduced DPS while on the move

All of this is perfectly fine.

However, what's not fine is that there is no micro-tax placed on the guy that bought the mortars/pits:
- You only need to screen your mortars with an MG (for suppression) or an infantry unit (for vision)
- Then, as you spot your opponent, you have enough time to retreat/brace your mortars

Enter the UKF mortar pit barrage bug

If you've ever used the barrage ability on the UKF mortar pit, you would immediately notice that it's not that great.

The reason behind this is that one of the mortars is bugged and deals LESS damage while it is barraging than when it is auto-attacking.

You can read more about this here:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/47514/ukf-mortar-emplacement-barrage-bug-mortar-inconsistency

This is wrong in so many ways:
- People expect the barrage to increase the DPS on your mortar (not decrease it!)
- Barraging incurs a micro tax on the player, whereas autoattack doesn't
- If autoattack is almost as good (or better in the UKF mortar case) as barrage, why would you ever spend your time barraging? Just let your enemy do the dodging instead!

A modest proposal

1. Swap the damage profile of UKF mortar pit autoattack and barrage
2. Apply a similar damage pattern to all indirect-fire weapon teams
3. (Maybe!) in order to compensate, increase the rate-of-fire / reduce the cooldown of barrages

What will this achieve?
- Mortar autoattack will still be able to soften enemy targets; only very slightly worse than before.
- However, it will be almost impossible to get filthy full-squad wipes with autoattack; you will need to (consciously) use barrage for that.
- Autoattack will still be almost as good at clearing garrisons.
- Barrage will be as potent as ever, so that you can use your mortars offensively.

I think you have a good point. Although they would need to reduce the cool down for barrage, or add creeping barrage?

Ye reduce AA of all indirect fire and proportional increase the dps of the barrage ability. Rewards good barrage usage and rewards good dodging

i think there are few people who really disagree with you. every couple of months one of the specific artillery threads turns into a more general thread and i'll say here what i say in those.

changing artillery so that it has a smaller lethal (>=80) AoE but a higher AoE that does significant damage to infantry (say, 20-60 damage) would be good because it allows artillery to inflict bleed without causing as many wipes but still allows artillery to do damage to vehicles, emplacements, and infantry with a direct hit.

as far as mortars go, i've always thought it would be a nice feature if barrages got more accurate the longer they went on. it's more realistic (for those who care) and it allows mortars to do more damage to stationary targets while still give mobile units time to move. at the moment artillery is frustrating for both the user and the person on the receiving end because it will sporadically wipe squads but other times miss an entrenched target multiple times.

Whenever I want something dead with mortars I just attack-ground it so I don't have to keep telling it to barrage.

Does attack-ground have any stat differences or something compared to auto-fire or barrage?

TBH, I'd basically do this:
1. Fix UKF bug - bugs are bad.
2. Reduce auto-fire RoF by about half.
3. Profit.

This gives them at least some use, and doesn't allow for "that landed right op top of X" situations, but makes them weak enough that you can't just 'afk-win' like you can with the mortar pit right now (or even the MHT).

Exsactly my thoughts, indirect fire weapons should be harder to use than placing them behind shot-blocker in a spot where they can reach half of the map to forget about them for the rest of the game.

1. Swap the damage profile of UKF mortar pit autoattack and barrage
2. Apply a similar damage pattern to all indirect-fire weapon teams
3. (Maybe!) in order to compensate, increase the rate-of-fire / reduce the cooldown of barrages

Can agree, much better barrages at the cost of poorer auto-attacking is a good concept to be applied for these units. Might also help out a lot in light of Maxim spam.

I love this idea!
You should only get back as much as you put in...

As it should be. Barrage > Autoattack

PD: can we increase the amount of shells on the pack howie barrage and get back the AT shells on the ISG ?

Doesn't the GrW34 still have its old rate of fire (2.4 seconds, I think) when using barrage? Might need adjusting a bit if the damage profile on the ability is increased.

Doesn't the GrW34 still have its old rate of fire (2.4 seconds, I think) when using barrage? Might need adjusting a bit if the damage profile on the ability is increased.

The damage profile on barrages should stay as it is. Mortars can receive other buffs to compensate.

What I am proposing, instead, is to decrease lethal (instakill) radius on autoattacks. That way, only the model that eats the mortar shell in the face will die, and not the whole squad.

Another reason behind the proposed changes is that it will not be easy to mass mortars/leigs/pits and utilize them all to their max efficiency:
- If you make them all barrage at the same location, the enemy can easily dodge them, and you've just wasted the cooldown
- Instead, you need to select different barrage locations for each mortar individually (and refresh them, once the barrage is over)

It is fine the way it is. Instant wipes are very very rare and still rare with heavy mortars it is still hard to instant wipe. This will severely limit how dynamic the mortar is. With infantry micro you may as well be making the mortar completely redundant against any infantry but heavy weapon teams. The purpose of the of the barrage ability is to attack things not in sight such as hidden MG's, emplacements, enemy arty etc. Most wipes I see are from people who refuse to notice that they are under mortar fire.

I do not agree with this idea for two reasons. The first is that mortars are already units that require micro if you want to make the most out of them. Sure, you can 'set and forget' about them and they will do damage, but you can also A-move a rifle squad and it will do damage. But just like with other units, mortars get better once you micro them more. To use them to their maximum effectiveness, you have to move them with your army, getting them as close as possible to the enemy to ensure maximum accuracy. You also have to manually target high priority squads so the shells do not get wasted. Proper use of artillery requires thought.

The second reason why I do not like your proposition is that it will just make mortars a bad investment against anything other than heavy support weapon play. Infantry heavy play often revolves around quick movement and flanking. Barrage abilities are totally useless in these types of engagements. Having mortar rely on the barrage will just send them into extinction like the heavy howitzers, but unlike heavy howitzers they do not even have the redeeming factor of obliteration the target infantry squad if they get a lucky first hit.

The second reason why I do not like your proposition is that it will just make mortars a bad investment against anything other than heavy support weapon play. Infantry heavy play often revolves around quick movement and flanking. Barrage abilities are totally useless in these types of engagements. Having mortar rely on the barrage will just send them into extinction like the heavy howitzers, but unlike heavy howitzers they do not even have the redeeming factor of obliteration the target infantry squad if they get a lucky first hit.

^

Don't change auto-attack but buff barrages.

If I want to attack a static target, I simply use attack ground because it keeps shooting until I press "stop". For anything else I can use auto-attack.

Why should I use the barrage tho? It doesn't offer more range, more damage or a lot more accurracy. The only useful barrage is smoke and that one seems bugged. The delay is insane.

I do not agree with this idea for two reasons. The first is that mortars are already units that require micro if you want to make the most out of them. Sure, you can 'set and forget' about them and they will do damage, but you can also A-move a rifle squad and it will do damage. But just like with other units, mortars get better once you micro them more. To use them to their maximum effectiveness, you have to move them with your army, getting them as close as possible to the enemy to ensure maximum accuracy. You also have to manually target high priority squads so the shells do not get wasted. Proper use of artillery requires thought.

The second reason why I do not like your proposition is that it will just make mortars a bad investment against anything other than heavy support weapon play. Infantry heavy play often revolves around quick movement and flanking. Barrage abilities are totally useless in these types of engagements. Having mortar rely on the barrage will just send them into extinction like the heavy howitzers, but unlike heavy howitzers they do not even have the redeeming factor of obliteration the target infantry squad if they get a lucky first hit.

You make some very very good points here.

First, let me clarify my idea a bit:
- I am not saying reduce autoattack damage (e.g., nerf it by X%!)
- Instead, I am proposing to nerf the lethal (oneshot) radius of the autoattacks

This means, that if an infantry model would take 40 damage or below before the nerf, it will still take the same amount of damage after the nerf.

Now, if an autoattack would instantly kill a full-health model before the nerf:
- There is a much smaller, but still decent chance that the autoattack will still instakill a model
- However, there is now a higher chance that the autoattack will inflict ~65 damage instead

The best way to illustrate the difference is to compare Cromwell AoE to AEC AoE:
- (let's ignore accuracy. The AEC is 2.3 times better against infantry due to scatter)
- Both shells have the same AoE radius
- The Cromwell has a much better damage profile though (The damage profile of the AEC is more concentrated)
- Thus, a Cromwell shell has decent chance of insta-wiping a full health squad that is clumping up
- It is very difficult to pull this off with the AEC in less than 3 shots

Now, go find somebody in the community that thinks that AEC damage in the current patch is worthless.
(I know am handwaiving here: The major #1 reason why AEC is so good against infantry is that it has ~2.3 times better scatter)

This means:
- Mortars will still be almost as good at softening enemy infantry (and help you turn fights)
- However, you will not be able to get full-health model kills in one-shot unless you use barrages

I hope this allays the fears you put down in your second reason.

Now, regarding the first reason you listed. If you want to attack using infantry:
- You can blob them and A-move; we all know that this only gets you this far
- Proper infantry usage means that you need to spread your squads at every step, make sure each squad is behind cover (and not in front of it), dodge grenades etc
- You also need to make sure you scout ahead so that you don't walk into an ambush etc
- Correct me if I am wrong, but mortars are nowhere near as micro intensive as that (you are screening for them with a scout/MG, right?)

PS: If you are specifically referring to USF blobs, the game will be completely different post-patch; USF massively benefited from #VetGate

Why should I use the barrage tho? It doesn't offer more range, more damage or a lot more accurracy. The only useful barrage is smoke and that one seems bugged. The delay is insane.

(Let's ignore the bugged UKF mortar pit here).

For every other single mortar in the game, a barrage is better than autoattacking:
- The reload speed is faster between shots (for the gr34, it puts the turbo in turbomortar)
- It gives you much better max-scatter (this is ideal for long-range counterbarrage)
- Some weapons can barrage at longer ranges than they can autoattack (The ranges for a vet3 ISG are; autoattack: 105, barrage: 140)

The way I look at your change is that auto fire woukd be like your grens in a fight- gradually they will wear down the enemy and maybe youll luck out and quickky drop a model- you would have reliable support fire, but barrage would be like poping a rifle nade-- if done properly it could completely change the way to fight goes, it can be dodged of course but it requires you to plan and put something into it vs say... Shreks of old (like waaaay old, the ones with the actual aoe) where all of a sudden an internal dice roll spelled your squad from mobile infantry into a decorative hole filled with blood and limbs.as far as becoming an esport goes this is definitely the way forward
(player plays game to victory vs game plays dice vs itself, has chance of instantly changing game just for being set near the enemy)

Exsactly my thoughts, indirect fire weapons should be harder to use than placing them behind shot-blocker in a spot where they can reach half of the map to forget about them for the rest of the game.

At some point, it might be worth experimenting with modelling what the game would be like if we had consistent rules for artillery. Like if indirect fire was always modelled as "off map barrages", except with the actual artillery pieces on map somewhere. Possibly like the british base howitzers where they're used as part of abilities but you don't control them directly. Although I'd want to modify the system a bit.

Another possibility is like, you have a "fire mission" tab somewhere on the interface, near the doctrine abilities probably, and it's a list of indirect fire assets and you can control them from there. Maybe they have infinite range as with howitzers, or maybe they are limited by their exact position as with a mortar, but in any case there's no such thing as auto-attack, since the mortar crews don't telepathically know where the enemy is.

This is obviously not a balance suggestion for coh2, but...