Fixing Volks - MP40s for shrecks

when it comes to StG44 vs MP40, I tend to say MP40, because okw has no representation of this much produced weapon yet.

They have T0 AT gun.

They would have fausts

They have mines

They have 2 tank destroyers non-doc (Panther, jagdpanzer)

They have a non-doc heavy

They have a doc heavy tank destroyer

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OKW had a ridiculous amount of AT potential, I fail to see how removing them from shreks would "fuck" them at all.



Soviets don't have "Hard AT infantry". And a lot worse options than OKW in the destroyer department. And OKW have the cheapest, earliest, AT gun in the game.

yes they have AT potential, but potential doesnt matter when you cant reach it because you get boned so hard in the early game by light vehicles. players would lose pretty much all skirmishes on the sides of the map in the earlyish mid game because they dont have AT support nearby, and they would have to spend a rather large amount of manpower on units that only excel at AT and not much else. basically you have no mobile counter to light vehicles other than the puma.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

I really do feel as if there is an infantry unit missing from OKW. A T2 unit that is not dependent on doctrine that can be upgraded with AT. As it stands the only infantry that you see on the battlefield that is capable of carrying AT weapons is Volksgrenadiers, as a result they are used from start to finish.

A type of grenadier unit would bridge the gap perfectly, coming out from the healing truck with the ability to upgrade a panzershreck. Even a dedicated anti-tank squad would suffice. I don't know why Relic hasn't done this with OKW maybe it is because they want every axis faction to be extremely different in almost every way.

thought about this a little bit and i think that paking mp40s INTO the schreck upgrade might be a solution. this would make volks shit at anything other than melee range which would make them easier to counter with other units. it wouldn't make a huge difference for pub stomp heros but for people who can use HMGs it would be significant.

alternatively a dedicated AT squad could be a good solution or PzB 39 or PrG 39. would be an interesting solution. the PrG 39 in particular would be cool as it would function like a Piat (OKW has mines for snare and other decent AT options) while also being able to have some kind of frag barrage ability.

yes they have AT potential, but potential doesnt matter when you cant reach it because you get boned so hard in the early game by light vehicles. players would lose pretty much all skirmishes on the sides of the map in the earlyish mid game because they dont have AT support nearby, and they would have to spend a rather large amount of manpower on units that only excel at AT and not much else. basically you have no mobile counter to light vehicles other than the puma.

just give volks at nade.. at nade and pupchen should destroy stuart and thats it if not make puma lol! and if that would hapend.. for me they can keep all free buldings bonuses and vet5. Like poop said they got so many AT options that they dont needed shreks but dont give OKW non doc mg all factions must have weaknes

thought about this a little bit and i think that paking mp40s INTO the schreck upgrade might be a solution. this would make volks shit at anything other than melee range which would make them easier to counter with other units. it wouldn't make a huge difference for pub stomp heros but for people who can use HMGs it would be significant.

alternatively a dedicated AT squad could be a good solution or PzB 39 or PrG 39. would be an interesting solution. the PrG 39 in particular would be cool as it would function like a Piat (OKW has mines for snare and other decent AT options) while also being able to have some kind of frag barrage ability.

This could work, call it the close combat package?

Although I'd rather the AT rifle so it does have higher DPM vs light vehicles with the Panzerjager squad, but doesn't have any effect on proper armour, which would require Panzerschrecks ugraded.

It's kind of an interesting idea but I don't see it getting used much. I mean, you've already got Sturmpioneers to deal with Allied infantry up close.

In regards to the Shreck. I believe it should go, but I'm also concerned that removing it will gimp the OKW overall.

lol OKW are heavily reliant on shreks without them they are screwed. Go play a 1v1 or 2v2 as OKW and dont use shreks the whole game and them come back to this topic.

Panzerjeager just sounds like panzer grenadiers with shreks. If volks and shreks were so hard to counter then okw would be dominating all modes since they are used EVERY MATCH hence the reliance but no they are not.

lol OKW are heavily reliant on shreks without them they are screwed. Go play a 1v1 or 2v2 as OKW and dont use shreks the whole game and them come back to this topic.

Panzerjeager just sounds like panzer grenadiers with shreks. If volks and shreks were so hard to counter then okw would be dominating all modes since they are used EVERY MATCH hence the reliance but no they are not.

I'm not getting rid of schrecks, I'm moving them.

And I'm interested in having Panzerjagers with different AT options that can trade DPM for pennetration, depending on tech.

Volks and schreks are not impossible to counter but it tends to lead to the blobby play that most hate.

I'm not getting rid of schrecks, I'm moving them.

And I'm interested in having Panzerjagers with different AT options that can trade DPM for pennetration, depending on tech.

Volks and schreks are not impossible to counter but it tends to lead to the blobby play that most hate.

DPM or Penetration, you got yourself a nice idea going on here.

This could work, call it the close combat package?

Although I'd rather the AT rifle so it does have higher DPM vs light vehicles with the Panzerjager squad, but doesn't have any effect on proper armour, which would require Panzerschrecks ugraded.

i would prefer more AT rifles in general because they're effective (but not OP) counters to light vehicles and it would delay schrecks some. it also adds variety. a dedicated AT squad would also be nice but it would be a lot of work.

It's kind of an interesting idea but I don't see it getting used much. I mean, you've already got Sturmpioneers to deal with Allied infantry up close.

the point isn't to make volks close combat squads, it's to make them suck at range so they don't deal with both infantry and tanks at range. kind of like how pgrens get 2 schrecks instead of 1 so that they get really good at AT but shit at AI. in the case of a schreck + mp40 (NOT mp44), volks would have effective AT while still having effective AI but ONLY at close ranges. again, it's not about giving OKW close combat options but instead about making volks less cost effective with schrecks.

i would prefer more AT rifles in general because they're effective (but not OP) counters to light vehicles and it would delay schrecks some. it also adds variety. a dedicated AT squad would also be nice but it would be a lot of work.

I think we're talking from the same page here, except I see tactical options. Because they are more effective due to ROF and hardly missing, they do end up having more DPM against light vehicles but lack pennetration to deal with medium tanks or heavies.

So getting schrecks is really trading penetration for DPM which adds to strategical depth.

Moreover, with current axis weapons, there is no way to distinguish light and medium armour in the way that allies weapons like the Zook can. What do I mean by this? All Axis AT will penn light and medium armour practically all the time so in these cases, it makes armour redundant, the only difference between a light and medium vehicle is HP. This is heavily exaggerated with the AEC which does compare to a mini Cromwell. This kind of change would end up fixing this.

As for work, not so much. Its acceptable to copy the Soviet AT rifle and use that for Panzerjager squads.

the point isn't to make volks close combat squads, it's to make them suck at range so they don't deal with both infantry and tanks at range. kind of like how pgrens get 2 schrecks instead of 1 so that they get really good at AT but shit at AI. in the case of a schreck + mp40 (NOT mp44), volks would have effective AT while still having effective AI but ONLY at close ranges. again, it's not about giving OKW close combat options but instead about making volks less cost effective with schrecks.

If we have panzerjager squads, I feel Volks with schrecks has to go. However, like VCoH, they can be given mp40s to engage at close range. Its situational but if I have this option, I'd rather use Volks to spearhead than sturms for instance.

But sure if panzerjager squads don't appear than thats a good alternative.

volks need to not scale as powerfully/cheaply as they do

if they're going to beat conscripts in most situations they should at least fall off harder than them

nerf their vet and make the schreck/flame grenade package side tech requiring research - that should balance them

volks need to not scale as powerfully/cheaply as they do

if they're going to beat conscripts in most situations they should at least fall off harder than them

nerf their vet and make the schreck/flame grenade package side tech requiring research - that should balance them

This isn't so much a balance problem as its a gameplay.

And such a nerf would hurt OKW earlygame a lot and allow OKW to just get killed by allied light vehicle play.

Pls read suggestion and OP in future before you post and comment on that.

Volksgrenadiers keep panzerschrek upgrade.
Replace incendiary grenade with what they had before.
Combine MP40s with incendiary grenades into 1 upgrade as a CQB package. How to balance... Prices or damage nerf maybe.

I was thinking of a way to rework the OKW faction to form a good contrast with the British and United States. Then I was looking at the the German Armies of the Western Front and how it's soldiers fought from Normandy up to the Siegfried Line campaign.

You know how brits have the hammer and anvil strategy but are defense and support minded... (question mark key doesn't work)
You know how usf has to be mobile and aggressive all of the time...
I think OKW should be redesigned to match them both.

It's like this: Select 1 of 3 divisions or strategies to alter your unit selection and overall battle strategy. OKW itself is supposed to be aggressive by design but this gives them a couple different options.
Each division will alter your selection of vehicles,support weapons and infantry and even some abilities in order to relate to the division or strategy selected. You get some bonus units too.

Panzer Division=Offense by faster mobilization of armor and elite infantry making this high risk high reward. I mean that as in, you can *potentially* end a game quickly but if you mess up it will be very difficult to get back. Kinda stupid, still working out the kinks. References Battle of the Bulge from my perspective. Armored push to game changing objective and such...
I'd include some light air support and panzer crews.

Infantry Division=Mixes of support,offense,defense with more effective infantry support weapons like pak38 50mm and mortars. Maybe Jaeger light infantry could become non-doctrinal. Also adds Jagdpanther as an alternative to the King Tiger, Marder 3, as well as a weapon dropping vehicle that can provide zb30 lmgs and panzerschrek crates. References Normandy and Market Garden what with containing a major allied assault. Might include an Officer squad, artillery radiomen and possibly a sniper or recon motorcycle.

Luftwaffe land division=Primarily defensive with some heavier emplacements and reinforced defenses. Includes some luftwaffe infantry, hotchkiss tanks and scavenged or non-german technology. Will include the versatile Flak 88 and maybe the Wirblewind. Might add weapon drop vehicle to this instead, as well as Bergepanzer. Perhaps infantry can reinforce the structures they garrison...
Luftwaffe infantry can build some kind of structure which allows 1 infantry unit at a time to transport itself to any neutral structure on the map. Think of this division as references to the Battle of the Scheldt or the Siegfried Line campaign. Being defensive minded, your Luftwaffe infantry could be capable of setting up pillboxes or support weapon dug outs.

Difficult to make this non convoluted...

Just put mp40s into shrek upgrade, mp40s with con ppsh like stats

Could someone explain me whats the problem with volks + schrecks? I know OKW spam volks, but thats mostly because those are the only cost-effective option as infantry. Obers are overpriced garbage, and SPs are drop-fast closerange unit. The rest is doctrinal and have their own problems too..

So i wonder...

Your problem is with the schreck itself? namely, it counters vehicles effectively? because i think a 90MU dedicated AT upgrade should do some damage against vehicles...

OR

Your problem is with the AI capabilities of the volks after upgrading them with schrecks?


just asking because none of these suggestions actually aim the root cause of the problems above... its more like a lobby against volks so any proper allied infantry can go easy-mode against OKW anytime...

This has been discussed many times already, actually for over a year now. Volks with their schrecks still going strong, Relic must think it's totally fine like this

Every fight tells a story. People will recall the glorious days the VolksShrekblob defended the fall of the Reich.

Maybe something like a 'panzerfaust volley' instead which costs munitions and isn't a vehicle snare.

Similar to the AT grenade volley in the Tank Hunter commander for USSR.