Did the Panzerwerfer really need a damage buff?

leave the panzerwerfer alone


and playercad pls

I understand that you have a habit of asking people to reveal their playercards. This is why I am not taking offense at your request.

However, if you want to be constructive, you also need to understand that you need to shoot the message; not the messenger.

The message I delivered contained 2 facts and 1 piece of personal opinion.

The OBJECTIVE FACTS are:
1) The Panzerwerfer currently performs orders of magnitude BETTER at clearing garrisons than any other unit in the game (range + cost + reaction time)
2) The old Panzerwerfer was on par with the current Katyusha. If the Panzerwerfer received a buf to its raw damage, shouldn't the Katyusha (and all other artillery) also receive a similar buff?

My PERSONAL SUBJECTIVE OPINION about how to resolve this imbalance:
3) The Panzerwerfer and the Katyusha should both perform at a level near the current Katyusha.

Now, if you can shoot down any of the two facts I presented, we can have an interesting conversation about our own SUBJECTIVE opinions.
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The werfer should be better than the Kat, because of its exceedingly high costs. However, these stats clearly show that the unit is overperforming and needs to be brought in line. Nice to see the numbers and explains the weird behavior I was seeing with Werfers wiping squads in buildings.

The werfer should be better than the Kat, because of its exceedingly high costs. However, these stats clearly show that the unit is overperforming and needs to be brought in line. Nice to see the numbers and explains the weird behavior I was seeing with Werfers wiping squads in buildings.

You might want to make it clear that you are referring to the exceedingly high costs to attain T4 for Ostheer. Otherwise, the Katyusha and the Panzerwerfer take exactly the same amount of resources (& popcap) to build, amass and replace.

(I am only posting this to protect you from abuse from other posters)

I understand that you have a habit of asking people to reveal their playercards. This is why I am not taking offense at your request.

However, if you want to be constructive, you also need to understand that you need to shoot the message; not the messenger.

The message I delivered contained 2 facts and 1 piece of personal opinion.

The OBJECTIVE FACTS are:
1) The Panzerwerfer currently performs orders of magnitude BETTER at clearing garrisons than any other unit in the game (range + cost + reaction time)
2) The old Panzerwerfer was on par with the current Katyusha. If the Panzerwerfer received a buf to its raw damage, shouldn't the Katyusha (and all other artillery) also receive a similar buff?

My PERSONAL SUBJECTIVE OPINION about how to resolve this imbalance:
3) The Panzerwerfer and the Katyusha should both perform at a level near the current Katyusha.

Now, if you can shoot down any of the two facts I presented, we can have an interesting conversation about our own SUBJECTIVE opinions.
Show Spoiler

I agree it needs a nerf but definitely not to the point it was at. Truth is that it was unusable before and if you find any posts from the time you will see that players thought about it as worst artillery unit in game. This was due to huge scatter, low AoE and prohibitive tech cost, with the latter one getting even higher during the process. Some even thought about removing that useless unit. That is why it took so much time for players to realise how good it is now. If it was to be nerfed to that levels it's tier should be changed to t3. Otherwise it can get only slight nerfs along all stats or cost increase.

Oh t4 cost is absolutely not prohibitive. Su tech tree have the same price as Oh if they skip t3. Which is what they ussualy do no problem. And oh have vastly better units with the same price - snipers, hmgs. Or similar units with much lower price - vehicles and medium tanks.

I would disallow them to to skip any tier and units from each to get t4.

I agree it needs a nerf but definitely not to the point it was at. Truth is that it was unusable before and if you find any posts from the time you will see that players thought about it as worst artillery unit in game. This was due to huge scatter, low AoE and prohibitive tech cost, with the latter one getting even higher during the process. Some even thought about removing that useless unit. That is why it took so much time for players to realise how good it is now. If it was to be nerfed to that levels it's tier should be changed to t3. Otherwise it can get only slight nerfs along all stats or cost increase.

It's interesting you mentioned this. Very early into coh2, I think maybe around the time of closed beta or open beta there were some significant differences in the game, for example Brummbar's wer 12 popcap and were OP as hell and t4 came with Elefant, Panther and Brummbar.

But t3 DID in fact have the Panzerwerfer in it. THe best time you will notice this is when you unlock t3 at the base building the german guy who speaks english in a crappy german accent says something like "you have now unlocked t3, heavy vehicles and rocket artillery is available" something along those lines. But he distinctly mentions "Rocket artillery is available". So you would have had to have been playing coh2 from it's earliest days but the Panzerwerfer WAS originally a t3 unit and not the t4 unit it has been for years since. This is most represented in the sound files upon unlocking t3.

Also I've been averse to using the panzerwerfer for literally years because it was such a useless for a majority of it's lifespan, thing never vetted up and was only good for killing infantry blobbed up and out in the open. Are you telling me they not only finally buffed it but gave it an overbuff so it's no longer one of the most useless units in the game?

So let me get this straight, I got a habit of making 2 mortars in all my builds, if I got manpower and fuel to spare, should I ever ditch my 2 mortars and go with the panzerwerfer now for my artillery needs since it's been overbuffed?

I agree it needs a nerf but definitely not to the point it was at. Truth is that it was unusable before and if you find any posts from the time you will see that players thought about it as worst artillery unit in game. This was due to huge scatter, low AoE and prohibitive tech cost, with the latter one getting even higher during the process. Some even thought about removing that useless unit. That is why it took so much time for players to realise how good it is now. If it was to be nerfed to that levels it's tier should be changed to t3. Otherwise it can get only slight nerfs along all stats or cost increase.

Thanks to ferwiner I did a re-check of my calculations.

I realized I completely missed the max scatter value being buffed (from 20 to 17). This is a very noticeable change for max-range barrages (however, this only affects VERTICAL scatter).

Note that:
- All of the points I have made in the original cost still stand
- This includes my original point about scatter
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I have amended the original post with a breakdown of what that means.
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I would disallow them to to skip any tier and units from each to get t4.

If it would be your, or 50% of the commentators here, choice to make Ost would just be utterly nerfed beyond reckognition. But gladly it isnt, all you guys ever do is try to find units that fuck up your playstyle and cry about it. That goes for both sides axis OR allies. It's just sad, the OP had some good points, tho they dont fit into the current 1v1 situation but he has a point when you look into 3v3+ but since esl declared 1v1 to the kings discipline there is no point to adjust 3v3/4v4 if you fuck up 1v1 balance.
and i cant post this often enough: http://coh2chart.com/
(in your words: ost so op, need nerfs!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111111111111111111 *insert tryhard troll comment* )

The werfer should be better than the Kat, because of its exceedingly high costs. However, these stats clearly show that the unit is overperforming and needs to be brought in line. Nice to see the numbers and explains the weird behavior I was seeing with Werfers wiping squads in buildings.

Thay have the same price. If you wahnt argument with battle phase and tiers price, its not good idea imo.

The Panzerwerfer seems to go back and forth between being extremely powerful and absolutely useless.

I think the thing with the Panzerwerfer though is that when it comes available to the Ostheer it is exactly what they need to counter an Allied faction that's dug in on a fuel point or vp.

Ostheer doesn't really dig in, at least not at the stage of rocket artillery, for something like the katyusha to have much functional use outside of punishing an ignorant blob. And besides there's plenty of artillery from the Soviets (ZiS, SU-76) before the katyusha to deal with any bunkers or any particular garrisons. Furthermore Ostheer T4 is a bit curious as the Panther is not a great tank against anything a panzerwerfer counters. The choice between a panther or panzerwerfer can have dire consequences for both players.

But by the lategame, most allied players will have been able to capitalize on the Ostheer only having an outmatched mortar to content with. This more often than not can put Allied players in a position where the panzerwerfer can pop out with incredible shock value. It's kind of a dark horse unit. These things make for the panzerwerfer being more important to the Ostheer than the katyusha is to the Soviets.

But man missing a panzerwerfer barrage and showing that you probably don't have any fuel invested in AT can be a great signal/bait for an allied offensive.

The issue with the panzer we're is the same issue with the old b4. It relies on an immense alpha strike, which makes it very hard to balance. If it is overbuffed, it becomes like it is now, but if it gets nerfed, it could very easily become worthless due to its inability to area deny like the katyusha or calliope.

Just look at the b4, which could wipe vehicles and squads with impunity. As soon as it lost its reliability (and thus its ability to alpha strike), it became worthless because it became an rng cannon that didn't really fulfill any other role. It's current role is just to punishing to stationary units (support weapons and capping squads.)

If the panzerwerfer has to keep its current firing patern, it has to have higher scatter and/or lower aoe.

I would rather see its barrage become slower and happen over a longer period of time, with a loss of suppression and a little more scatter, so it can be an area denial tool.

(Calli also needs similar changes)

Sexton cry for help!

The issue with the panzer we're is the same issue with the old b4. It relies on an immense alpha strike, which makes it very hard to balance. If it is overbuffed, it becomes like it is now, but if it gets nerfed, it could very easily become worthless due to its inability to area deny like the katyusha or calliope.

Just look at the b4, which could wipe vehicles and squads with impunity. As soon as it lost its reliability (and thus its ability to alpha strike), it became worthless because it became an ring cannon that didn't really fulfill any other role. It's current role is just to punishing to stationary units (support weapons and capping squads.)

If the panzerwerfer has to keep its current firing patern, it has to have higher scatter and/or aoe.

I would rather see its barrage become slower and happen over a longer period of time, with a loss of suppression and a little more scatter, so it can be an area denial tool.

(Calli also needs similar changes)

it already has suppression. so i think even if the PW rocket mirror KAT rocket, it will have its place.

This should be more of a question is why can't relic unlike other companies offer small tweaks to stat changes instead of using a sledge hammer. Slight tweaks and test till the sweet spot is found. Honestly some of the changes don't require a pro to see is way to excessive.

This should be more of a question is why can't relic unlike other companies offer small tweaks to stat changes instead of using a sledge hammer. Slight tweaks and test till the sweet spot is found. Honestly some of the changes don't require a pro to see is way to excessive.

I think the main problem is with all 5 armies and the huge power creep that the new armies have brought to the table, relic no longer has a clear idea of where all units power levels should be. This leads for lack of a better phrase to knee jerk reactions to try and bring units back in line one way or another.

My personal opinion is that relic need to stop look at each units place on the power curve, and instead look at the power curve its self. For example how powerful should rocket artillery be. Should they be able to wipe squads every time it is fired, or on some time, etc. Because i think relic has lost this.