CoH2/Relic and E-Sports - My thoughts.

RNG is ok in doses. Poker boomed for a few years and then went back to its previous levels because it's not that fun of a spectator sport and doesn't require that much skill.

Having a poorly optimized game and then 1-shot wipe abilities prevalent is no fun. Over half of my games get to over 1 second response times by mid to late game. Then my enemy uses shit like satchels on me and even though I degarrison in time the latency ensures the squad gets wiped. That's not fun, that's retarded.

COH1 had these problems too with the fact that they left strafe in such an overpowered state for so long. Free insta-wipes. COH2 doesn't have a strafe-like ability as much anymore, but it does have way worse optimization. I was able to upgrade my computer to play COH1 with good settings and the latency was enver that bad even in games across the pond with European players who make up most of the player base.

COH2 runs like pudding on all computers. I hope that COH2 esports fails just so they can admit defeat and move on to the next game. THere should have been a DOW3 by now and after which they make a COH sequel with a proper engine and network code.

CoH2 has a massive player base, relatively speaking http://steamcharts.com/app/231430#All


Yes that is the main problem with this game. Some top CoH2 players don't even know the basics

By massive you mean less the Age of Empires 2 first released in 1999...

The problem with team games in RTS is the fact that they're just too difficult to watch and follow. They're fun to play, sure, but they make for crappy spectating, especially because if you're interested in team games, why wouldn't you watch one of the many popular team-based competitive games out there that were specifically designed for that sort of thing?

Team RTS games, especially 3v3/4v4, are impossible to follow from a spectating perspective because there's just too much shit happening. The unfortunate truth is RTS is a 1v1 genre in a time when people would much rather watch proper, focused team play that they can follow easily. Dota and CS are very tight, focused team games that were specifically designed for that style of play. RTS games are by their nature extremely unfocused, which makes them interesting to watch 1v1 but a complete chore to watch 4v4.

Maybe they need a creative team within Relic to start another potential team based mod/game mode within the engine to take advantage of the team based approach for competitive play. DOTA had such beginnings. Do something to make the viewing experience less of a cluster f&$k for the viewer to watch team games and giving casters the tools they need to show it off to the world. Maybe it's to late and they need to move onto the next game as I cannot see this being any more then a half arsed attempt to flog this dead horse for a bit more cash.

Maybe they need a creative team within Relic to start another potential team based mod/game mode within the engine to take advantage of the team based approach for competitive play. DOTA had such beginnings. Do something to make the viewing experience less of a cluster f&$k for the viewer to watch team games and giving casters the tools they need to show it off to the world. Maybe it's to late and they need to move onto the next game as I cannot see this being any more then a half arsed attempt to flog this dead horse for a bit more cash.

You mean like Total War: Arena?

No thanks. That game makes me feel like a micro master compared to the casuals who play it. Now I know how good 2v2 players feel, having the free time to micro additional units or type instructions.

One featere Arena has that I do like is a pen with which you can draw on the battlefield. You can circle a guys unit and then draw an arrow where you ant him to move it. Since he is staring at the toes of his own soldiers that feature actually works.

Hey guys, i just want to say, im a little bit impressed by the feedback here. Of course, i would like reric would read it, but when enough of you read it, im happy with it!

I liked to read your opinions about, and i read every post from you here. Were a plessure.

spectateable team RTS can be pulled off but it comes down to map design and game pacing. if most of the action is happening in a small area of the map, like Caldaris Refinery in DoW2, then it works. you still have to pay attention to ninja caps and flanks on the edges but unless people are actively fighting you don't have spend time there. if the pace of the game is slow enough you can spend time at different areas of the map which helps viewers understand what is going on.

Hello everyone,

since a couple weeks i read the Threads here and read a lot about CoH2 and E-Sports, especially with a look at the "Go4CoH2" ESL Business.

I want give you my thoughts about CoH2 and E-Sports, because, someone may interested in thoughts which are not made by Users which playing since CoH1 and hanging in that forum since the beginning. So you get the chance to hear from someone outside.

First short sentences about my person. My english isn't good at all and i hope you all can forgive me for all the mistakes i do with this beautiful language.

More interesting, i have a Knowledge about Relic and their point of view on E-Sports. I played the Dawn of War franchise from "Reric", the first and the second one, for fun but later also money. I was allowed to visit THQ several times to speak with reric Multiplayerdesigners, Senoirdesigner and that kind of people. Mainly because i shared my hometown with THQ. And someone could hate me for that, but Dawn of War and Company of heroes are the same desing idea from relic. CoH2 is just one step ahead/forward/in the future from Dawn of War 2.

There are some things you have to know about Relic and E-Sports.
Relic notes, today E-Sport is a thing, that they want to join in. Mainly because of you, not for E-Sports at all, relic care about his customers and they really try to give you a good product. But beside the product everything else should also goood for you. So Relic really try to give you a real E-Sports Experienced, like you all want.

But in every game they made, they fail in the same things:

- P2P - Yeah, the idea relic do is right. "When the player connect to each other directly, the ping should be better" And yes, thats right. But you need an effectiv upload from 4 kb/s for one player. So 1v1 needs 8 kb/s upload. 2v2 needs 16 Kb/s.. do the math. In Fact, there are a lot of players in the world, they dont have a good internet connection and banned from the multiplayer experience from the begginning. Im happy with my 50.000 DSL 50.000 kb downstream 3.125 upstream. So in fact i have 312.5 kb/s upload. But you are in trouble if you internet is lower than 1.280 upstream. So the E-Sport playerbase is reduced. Lower internet connections will play LEague of Legends, with his own servers and in the future maybe their own "internet"/"Intranet" or Counterstrike, DoTA or starcraft. - There is no solution. Relic can't change the P2P and also they can't give everyone on the World DSL 4000.

- Ranking - Yeah, also this is an issue which relic has with every game. There is a ladder which is never be "reseted". So people idle in top 100 for years and you dont have a chance to reach that elo when you jump in later. Of course. The ingame Ranking says nothing about playerskill. But the motivation for new players drops down really fast, when they realize they can't never reach the Top 100, because the Elo from this players is to high, nvm they play better maybe. And when they cant reach the Top 100, why should they join the E-Sports events (exp. ESL) ? And if they cant reach the top 100 because the ladder is not made for E-Sports (Because unbalancing with releases of new patches or the game release itself, or i never play against people who give new player enough elo to climb up or i just the feeling, i become better, but the ladder dont show me, so i quit) - Solution : Soft reset the ladder ever 6 months or once in a year, like other E-Sports game doing it. Or Elo penalty due inactivity, like other E-Sports games. Nearly every E-Sport game has a better Ladder that relic had. (That don't include the Matchmaking, which is good for that small playerbase i think)

- No Mirrormatches allowed - Yeah. Starcraft succes is because they have iconic players, who play one faction for years. So some players have their own style which is enjoy to watch for public or casuals. - No Solution. The Game balance depends on allies and axis. Good for casuals who love History, but bad for E-Sports at all. Also you lose a bunch of Matchups.

- The uncontrollable - I enjoy the RNG a lot in CoH2, yeah, i also miss Sync-Kills from Dawn of War Franchise, but for E-Sports its horrible. Give a look at the succesfull E-Sports games. Counterstrike, DoTA, Starcraft, League of Legends.. in all that games the players have full controll about the game mechanics. They can fail or win with on his own made game mechanic fails or wins. Counterstrike aiming, your knowledge of the game can be great, but when you never hit, you will lose due the gamemechanic. Also with Starcraft, if you are more worse in macro than you enemy, you will lose, nevermind you had the better strategy. In CoH2 you dont have the full controll about the game mechanic in fact. Maybe the shot penetrates, maybe 4 times in a row not. Also the retreat thing, that we all love, make the game more uncontrollable. I like the retreat thing, but for E-Sports its bad. - No Solutions, i like it.

- outplay - In CoH2 or relic RTS at all there is no way to absolutly outplay you enemy with the game mechanics. You can aviod every greneade the enemy drops on you, you can discover every mine, before it explodes. But if you just spam Engineers, you will lose. In Company of Heroes 2 you win with strategy, not tactic. Of course, its good to avoid every nade, and when both player have a similar gamestragtegy, its a thing. but its not the primary thing. I Like it. But sucessfull E-Sport has the oppurtunity to win the whole game with the mechanics only. Also the Upkeep system and the "unkillable" base are funny comeback mechanics, and make the game more intense. But also block the opputunity to outplay due game mechanics. - No solutions, i like it too.

- enjoy to watch for public - Another thing is,i guess the most important thing for E-Sport is "There a viewers, who watch the E-Sport games, there a people who follow the scence?" Sponsors never gave me Money for playing Dawn of War, Because i played better than others. Or more spectacular, or more unique. I didn't anything from that. They gave money for "Who follow the scence? People watch him playing? People are interested in him and the game? There are enough people to reach?" World War 2 is not a setting for everyone. Starcraft, League of Legends, DoTA.. all has his own unique, kind of interesing style. This never known style is also a point to watch the games. Counterstrike is another Thing. Terrorism is interessting for everyone i guess. But World War 2? I dont think so. You are feed in school with World War 2. Also there are no fancy colours in World War 2, like in Starcraft, League of Legends, Dota... Yeah. Company of Heroes 2 is the best looking RTS out there. But also with a style, which is not made for everyone. - No Solution, Company of Fancy Pants sounds bad.

At all Company of Heroes 2 is a good game. I absolutly fall in Love with the squad based RTS Genre. But in my honest opinion, Company of Heroes 2 is not made for professional E-Sports. But i want to, and i do support Company of Heroes 2 became E-Sports at this time. I Like the game how it is.

Finished. I hope everyone can understand what i wrote. I hope i understood what i wrote. I struggled with some sentences cuz I'm not a native english speaker.

And please, dont get me wrong. I dont want to bother the good CoH2 players and want to say "You arent as good as you think" or whatever. You are good in playing Company of Heroes 2. Way better than me i guess. Im just level 87 with no stars. And i dont say the game is unbalanced for E-Sports. These are just my thoughts about Company of Heroes connected to E-Sports.

PS: I would love relic would change the Laddersystem and P2P for other people but me.

Dota 2 is the most competitive game, is it balanced? NO!( I play dota since 5.84b competitive)
Is LOL balanced? hell no!, if u want a game to become competitive the only thing you need is $, and I played a lot of dow1 and sc2, COH2 e is more fun to watch than sc2.

The problem with team games in RTS is the fact that they're just too difficult to watch and follow. They're fun to play, sure, but they make for crappy spectating, especially because if you're interested in team games, why wouldn't you watch one of the many popular team-based competitive games out there that were specifically designed for that sort of thing?

Team RTS games, especially 3v3/4v4, are impossible to follow from a spectating perspective because there's just too much shit happening. The unfortunate truth is RTS is a 1v1 genre in a time when people would much rather watch proper, focused team play that they can follow easily. Dota and CS are very tight, focused team games that were specifically designed for that style of play. RTS games are by their nature extremely unfocused, which makes them interesting to watch 1v1 but a complete chore to watch 4v4.

Isn't mostly because your vision of team game is clustered too much? What was DOTA at the beginning, a mod made to play teamgame in a different fashion at a time it was difficult to play 4vs4 for many reasons. It doesn't suit for Coh mechanisms and background but it doesn't mean there is no other way to play team game.

We are still playing RTS team game like Westwood studio invented it 20 years ago. maybe now the maturity and audience are there for RTS it is time to rethink how to play RTS game in team play. Blizzard innovated in SC2 and 2 players sharing bases and units. Relic should think of a way to entertain more team game, not simply having 4 players having 4 bases and 4 armies.

For instance, I liked the attrition mod but they never get farther than an initial idea, they never try to promote and improve it.

Imo, Relic should now, instead of delivering a nw DLC army, improve Mods integration in their game, promote the most intelligent/original ones and not do like Blizzard did with Dota.
I'm pretty sure if Relic promote the right mod, popular in team game, they'll find here their E-sport audience and revenues.

Blizzard innovated in SC2 and 2 players sharing bases and units.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but it isn't innovative or even new concept.
You already could do that back in WC3 days.
Its only refined concept if anything.

Last time blizzard did something innovative was when WC3 was released, pretty much everything since then is either their own old stuff being refined, or outside stuff converted to their needs.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but it isn't innovative or even new concept.
You already could do that back in WC3 days.
Its only refined concept if anything.

Last time blizzard did something innovative was when WC3 was released, pretty much everything since then is either their own old stuff being refined, or outside stuff converted to their needs.

My bad, replace SC2 by WC3.

Change the fundamental structure of the game and it's not really an RTS anymore though. I don't consider Men of War an RTS, for example, because it doesn't have resource collection or base building; it's a real-time tactics game because it focuses entirely on unit control and only has token macro strategic gameplay. Same goes for Dota, it's an RTS mod with a lot of RTS elements, but it's definitely not part of the RTS genre.

An RTS is really limited in scope to what you described, base building, resource management, and a combination of meaningful strategic and tactical options. Moving away from that structure might make for a better team experience, but it wouldn't be an RTS anymore. That's not necessarily a bad thing, I just don't think Relic will ever do something like that because it means designing an entirely different game.

You don't just need money. You need designers that listen to the feedback of top players. Better yet (and this is true with RIOT and Icefrog/Valve) you need designers that come from the competitive multiplayer scene. Just look at the story of how these two global phenomenons came to be: LoL & dota 2. Both grew out of the players/community that loved to compete.

When you have somebody like that in your company, you should nourish them and encourage them. You should promote them to the designer position that they want, and not relegate them to trying to balance stuff that is terribly designed, eventually frustrating them enough to quit.

We all know that most of Relic is working on a new project. Will it be a multiplayer project? If it is, will they actually listen to top players from the start, before the release? Or will they churn through token "beta groups" one after the next, when they don't get the feedback they want, as they have done with COH2?

You don't just need money. You need designers that listen to the feedback of top players. Better yet (and this is true with RIOT and Icefrog/Valve) you need designers that come from the competitive multiplayer scene. Just look at the story of how these two global phenomenons came to be: LoL & dota 2. Both grew out of the players/community that loved to compete.

When you have somebody like that in your company, you should nourish them and encourage them. You should promote them to the designer position that they want, and not relegate them to trying to balance stuff that is terribly designed, eventually frustrating them enough to quit.

We all know that most of Relic is working on a new project. Will it be a multiplayer project? If it is, will they actually listen to top players from the start, before the release? Or will they churn through token "beta groups" one after the next, when they don't get the feedback they want, as they have done with COH2?

I'd say you can get away with one or the other and have moderate success. Take World of Tanks, for instance; I highly doubt it was designed and developed with serious tournament play in mind, but its developers threw money at the scene and it grew like crazy. On the other end of the spectrum you have the original DotA mod, which had minimal money but a developer who understood and actively worked to improve the game's competitive viability because he loved the competitive scene and wanted to see it grow.

Of course, when you combine those two you end up with incredible success stories like Dota 2, which has millions of dollars and a developer that works closer with the competitive scene than anyone else. It just doesn't seem to be Relic's company culture to do either of those things, and I think they missed the boat by not adapting to modern trends in multiplayer gaming. I mean look at the most popular multiplayer games these days, they pretty much all have thriving developer-supported competitive scenes that took root before the games gained widespread popularity. I don't really think that's a coincidence.

Relic had a chance to embrace that philosophy, and they had at least one person internally who would've done an amazing job of it had he been given the opportunity, like you said. The entirety of CoH2's lifespan has been a series of barely missed opportunities.

Dota 2 is the most competitive game, is it balanced? NO!( I play dota since 5.84b competitive)
Is LOL balanced? hell no!, if u want a game to become competitive the only thing you need is $, and I played a lot of dow1 and sc2, COH2 e is more fun to watch than sc2.

Completely wrong,Those games are perfectly balanced to allow every pro player to shit on newbies ones and eventually let newbie ones get better,There are of course some "easier" champions and overpowered items,but often get patched (of course,the developers count on much bigger resources) and over all you realise that at high levels everything is balanced (just like some people say in coh2),A bronze player will always cry YASUO OP,a platinum one will laugh his ass off as he breaks said yasuo in pieces

You need both, throwing money at a game won't make it become an overnight success if people by and large don't enjoy playing it. While on the other hand you can have a very compelling and unique game but without investment you won't get the game's merits across.

Grey Goo currently has an eye watering amount of cash being thrown at competitions for the game but its average daily player amount still remains abysmal. The problem? The game just isn't up to snuff http://steamcharts.com/app/290790

I also think it's very unfair to malign world of tanks. It has very appealing gameplay, very broad appeal and a developer that wants to invest in the competitive scene.

I didn't say anything negative about World of Tanks. I just said it probably wasn't designed to be a serious tournament title, because it probably wasn't designed to be a serious tournament title. I figured that was, ya know, pretty obvious.

Perhaps, I've not read any interviews with staff from wargamer.net. On the other hand what games on that top 50 you linked earlier were designed from outset on day one as a "serious tournament title."?

Dota 2, CSGO, LoL, SC2...

Dota 2, CSGO, LoL, SC2...

For LoL and Dota 2 I can perhaps see that being the case but I believe it was more so capitalizing on the success of the original mod. As both games started out development around the same time and you have Valve hiring icefrog and Riot hiring Guinsoo, both companies attempted to get that expertise on board to great the next iteration of the popular mod.

CSGO was initially panned by the CS community, it wasn't until the big overhaul a few years ago that the scene excepted the game. It's funny that CS 1.6 is still raking in more prize money though

SC2 is an attempt to carbon copy at the time a 12 year old game that through serendipity managed to have an amazing competitive scene.

Personally I don't believe I don't believe that developers make games to be "serious tournament titles." they make games for people to have fun at all skill levels and in the case of the popular competitive games, the developers consider that when the game is being played against other people.

I'll keep the developer's name out of it but the armies and units that go into Relic games are designed because they are believed to be cool and that a lot of the designers like to make replica virtual armies or recreate scenarios from ww2 or in the case of 40k create fan fics. The designers don't take into consideration how the game will play out when it's in a pvp situation. It's left for the balance designer to tweak the numbers in AE but not much more than that without special permission.

Changing this game to suit Esports would kill it.

No, just no.

Let it stay fun.