Heavy Assault Guns vs Fortifications

Heavy assault guns like: SturmTiger, ISU-152, KV-2 indirect, Brumbar, Dozer AVRE, should be better at dealing with Fortification like UKF emplacements, 88s, bunkers, flaks, trucks...

SturmTiger especially does very little damage even to a Bofors if it is braced (around like 20%), and due to long time before firing one has plenty of time to use brace.

Imo these weapons, that according to Relic have the role of destroying fortifications and where historically developed specifically for that role, should be better at it.

(edited original post to include Relic design intended of heavy assault gun being used against fortifications, since some seem to be allergic to word "historic")

One could add some damage modifier similar to Avre against structures.

One could also make it veterancy related:

for instance Brumbar vet 1 ability "Bunker Busting Barrage" could have damage bonus or even bypass some of the "brace" damage reduction. For instance instead of 75% damage reduction the reduction could be lower down to 50%.
A similar change could be made to the Sturm Tiger (S.T.) also by adding similar affect in vet 1 since the vet 1 S.T. is quiet useless.

Similar change could be made to other assault guns like the Dozer, Kv-2 indirect, ISU-152 giving some anti-structure barrage abilities (where not available) or some structure damage modifiers with veterancy.

historically

katitof's video

Thanks for providing, once more, your constructive input. It has been as helpful as most of your (7.500) inputs...

Happy holidays dude.

Ok, have it your way then:

These units are NOT designed to fight fortifications, because there are no real fortifications in coh2 bar three emplacements, 2 of them you can YOLO with shrecks head on.

The units you mentioned are mostly stricktly infantry support units to scare off blobs of opponents infantry or wipe team weapon or two.

You want these units to perform in the role that doesn't exist in CoH2, because fortifications are non valid as well as non existent across five factions.

In regards to brace-that is exactly why it was designed this way, to sustain heavy alpha strike abilities like off maps or ST shot, it have plenty of negative modifiers to pop like a balloon vs right counters.

In addition to that, ST and ISU obliterate campy players who prefer to sit on team weapons instead of attacking, remaining units you've mentioned are once again-simple infantry support to break through HMG line or disrupt blob of doom.

Realism ends where balance starts, CoH2 is immerse, not realistic.

Is that enough?

These units are NOT designed to fight fortifications, because there are no real fortifications in coh2 bar three emplacements, 2 of them you can YOLO with shrecks head on.

And another non constructive post begins.

Heavy assault guns gun WHERE historically designed to fight fortification.
Bunkers, fighting position are fortifications.
17P is a fortification as is the 88.
Just because shcrecks can kill fortification does not mean that other units should noy be able either...

The units you mentioned are mostly stricktly infantry support units to scare off blobs of opponents infantry or wipe team weapon or two.

No they are all heavy assault guns. Infantry support units are vanilla Churchill.

You want these units to perform in the role that doesn't exist in CoH2, because fortifications are non valid as well as non existent across five factions.

So basically your argument is that Because soviet do not have fortification the other 4 faction should not units that have the role of taking out fortifications.

In regards to brace-that is exactly why it was designed this way, to sustain heavy alpha strike abilities like off maps or ST shot,

No it is not. If it was it would not last that long...

Realism ends where balance starts, CoH2 is immerse, not realistic.
Is that enough?

Having units designed to fight fortification does not upset balance at the least, it immerse and realism are completely relevant to this issue.

Is that enough?

Even you previous post was more than enough, not alone your precious 7.435. Pls do me a favor and only post when you have something constructive to add...

It's all fine. Just force a brace, wait 30 seconds, then fire the Sturmtiger rocket.

And tell me why do you assume I'm talking about IRL design on arcade RTS games forum again?

You've confused yourself the very moment you thought of anything in CoH2 gameplay as historically accurate.

Let me reassure you, conscripts didn't oora charged into LMG grens just to stand 1 meter before them and shoot from there, missing 50% of shots.

And tell me why do you assume I'm talking about IRL design on arcade RTS games forum again?
...

I have no interest in assuming or understating, what you mean since it is not constructive (and you seem to have trouble expressing what you want to say).

Once more Please only post when you have something constructive to add...

I have trouble expressing what I say?

I plainly said to you that these units in coh2 are NOT designed to fight fortifications, because they don't exist in coh2 and YOU in the 1st line of your reply try to pull a strawman on me and on 2nd one completely derail the answer by assuming historical stuff in arcade RTS yet again, again WITHOUT providing a SINGLE balance or gameplay argument why anything should be changed.

Then you go again, like a broken record, with your historical BS.
Then for some reason you think you need T3 and T4 level units to kill fighting position or bunker.
You don't even understand why brace is there in the first place, yet try to argue it.

And every single unit in game capable of AT damage is effective bunker buster, which you completely and utterly ignore, keeping yourself fixated on these few units without any other reason then "because historically" which was proven again and again-doesn't apply in coh2 in the slightest.

Think twice who isn't constructive and have trouble expressing himself here, please.

Jagtiger outranges the 17pndr by 5 range. Sturm Tiger has largest AOE and does massive damage if the building isn't braced. Remember the buildings themselves cant move and require loads of resources and upkeep.


Brace has a cool down of 40~50 seconds so attack them with AT Gun then fire sturmtiger after brace wares off.

Brace is designed to block shots like the sturmtiger but it cant toggle.

I actually believe Katitof's posts are entirely relevant, so please OP, stay on topic and don't engage even if you feel provoked.

I actually believe Katitof's posts are entirely relevant, so please OP, stay on topic and don't engage even if you feel provoked.

If they are relevant lets start over:
Imo (as OP) UKF emplacement, 88s, Fighting positions, Bunker and OKW T4 truck are fortification.

Imo (as OP) ST, ISU-152, KV-2 indirect, Avre, Dozer, Brumbar are assault guns.
Historically these units where designed to fight fortification. In game this units can take such a role and become better at dealing with fortification increasing the immersion without upsetting balance.

Sturm tigers are fun to use.

I plainly said to you that these units in coh2 are NOT designed to fight fortifications, because they don't exist in coh2.

Lets see what Relic has to say about the subject:

In game AVRE description:
"Churchill AVRE this special designed and protected Churchill AVRE (Armored Vehicle Royal Engineers) is equipped with a massive 290 Petard mortar that fires 40 lb (Flying Dustbin) capable of levering fortification or smashing troop concentrations."

So according to Relic there are fortification in game...

The units you mentioned are mostly stricktly infantry support units...

In game description Brumbar
SturmPanzer Brummbar known by its nickname "brummbar", this heavy assault gun has a 15cm howitzer in an armored casemate. It brings its gun into close range and smashes the enemy with 40kg
shells.

So according to Relic heavy assault gun exist and Brumbar is one of them.

Can we move on to something more constructive now pls...

Katiof answer was pretty funny, seeing you lack a sense of humor I'll be straightforward, the answer is balance trumps realism.

I'll be straightforward, the answer is balance trumps realism.

That is a very nice generalization but not very relevant. Realism and Balance are not conflicting concepts. One can achieve balance by using realistic solutions, in fact the more realistic the solutions the better the immersion.

In other words, what you wrote, does not explain, why in your opinion, a bonus on damage of Avre shot against a Schwerer Panzer Headquarters would upset balance.

That is a very nice generalization but not very relevant. Realism and Balance are not conflicting concepts. One can achieve balance by using realistic solutions, in fact the more realistic the solutions the better the immersion.

Game mechanics in coh2 mean that M-42 45mm AT gun is as much of a fortification breaker as ISU-152.

In other words, what you wrote, does not explain, why in your opinion, a bonus on damage of Avre shot against a Schwerer Panzer Headquarters would upset balance.

It won't one shot it, its not designed to counter it, it won't make a difference, so why put the effort and make the change in the first place?

You still weren't able to answer WHY anything should be changed.

Game mechanics in coh2 mean that M-42 45mm AT gun is as much of a fortification breaker as ISU-152.

I have trouble expressing what I say?
I plainly said to you that these units in coh2 are NOT designed to fight fortifications, because they (fortifications) don't exist in coh2 ...

M-42 is not a fortification breaker, because according to you, fortification do not exist in COH2

...its not designed to counter it,...

Unfortunately I have to repeat thing for you
"Churchill AVRE this special designed and protected Churchill AVRE (Armored Vehicle Royal Engineers) is equipped with a massive 290 Petard mortar that fires 40 lb (Flying Dustbin) capable of levering fortification or smashing troop concentrations."

Well Relic disagrees with you...it is designed to do just that...

To sum up:
I really see little point in continuing debating with out, wasting time and space, unless you acknowledge that you where wrong and :
1) Fortification do exist in COH2
2) Assault guns and heavy assault guns exist in COH2
3) The design purpose of heavy assault gun is to destroy fortification

Judging from your history I doubt you will prove able to acknowledge that you where wrong, thus our debate will not continue....
Happy new year anyway

I'm arguing potato who supports its claim with fluff text instead of unit stats here

The only unit description line that MATTERS is the single one at the bottom, below the fluff text.

What does the avre text say?

"effective vs infantry and buildings"

What does AVRE do?

Wipe infantry and clears buildings.

Same goes for every other unit you've mentioned.

For some reason, you still believe wehr bunker or USF fighting position are "fortifications" that require dedicated late game, often doctrinal units to dispose of.

In other words, what you wrote, does not explain, why in your opinion, a bonus on damage of Avre shot against a Schwerer Panzer Headquarters would upset balance.

It's already doing bonus damage. (600 vs. normal 480, if I'm not mistaken)