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UKF on Life Support

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10 Dec 2015, 11:30 AM
#221
avatar of SpaceHamster
Patrion 14

Posts: 474



On a sideNote: can someone go for #1 rank 4v4 from these 1v1 heroes? It takes the same skill so shouldnt be a problem :^)



Well that's actually really easy.

In fact, I'll do it with random team mates.
10 Dec 2015, 11:42 AM
#222
avatar of Bananenheld

Posts: 1593 | Subs: 1



Well that's actually really easy.

In fact, I'll do it with random team mates.

And not like dusty already proved it with his #1 ranking in 3v3 :^)
10 Dec 2015, 12:34 PM
#223
avatar of wuff

Posts: 1534 | Subs: 1

The OKW are over performing in 1v1 and that effect is magnified in team games with greater resource pools.

Trying to balance the game above 1v1 is just too complicated and time consuming a task, there are just too many variables.

The only feasible approach to balance the game with relics bandwidth is to work around 1v1. In theory if every faction has a chance equal to beat its opposite it should scale up in team games.



10 Dec 2015, 16:21 PM
#225
avatar of Kubelecer

Posts: 403

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Dec 2015, 12:34 PMwuff
The OKW are over performing in 1v1 and that effect is magnified in team games with greater resource pools.

Trying to balance the game above 1v1 is just too complicated and time consuming a task, there are just too many variables.

The only feasible approach to balance the game with relics bandwidth is to work around 1v1. In theory if every faction has a chance equal to beat its opposite it should scale up in team games.



10 Dec 2015, 17:02 PM
#226
avatar of Swift

Posts: 2723 | Subs: 1

Invissed a post.

Last time, gentlemen. Discuss UKF in all their various modes, bring in OKW etc if you need to, but this is not a boxing ring and you won't be swinging punches at people for playing a different mode to you.

Stay on topic.
10 Dec 2015, 17:25 PM
#227
avatar of pigsoup
Patrion 14

Posts: 4301 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Dec 2015, 17:02 PMSwift
Invissed a post.

Last time, gentlemen. Discuss UKF in all their various modes, bring in OKW etc if you need to, but this is not a boxing ring and you won't be swinging punches at people for playing a different mode to you.

Stay on topic.


woah. if you invised my post strictly according to the reason you stated, why only mine got invised? why not close the shole thread? there are numerous other threads similar to this one and this one turned into giant shit on other mode players.
10 Dec 2015, 17:29 PM
#228
avatar of Napalm

Posts: 1595 | Subs: 2

Dang, I can't believe I missed this thread.

CoH2 has been out since June, 2013. I bring this date up because it would appear that Relic really hasn't learned from the past 2 1/2 years in terms of balancing approach. I just don't get where the disconnect is happening. UKF was released in a unbalanced state right after a public Beta. These OKW changes were tested there and in an additional public balance preview patch. Many of these issues were identified there but never acted on. Why? Until that is figured out I fear that the community will continue to go through the roller coaster of shit every time a new balance patch is released.

For those taking a vacation from CoH2 try out RB6 Siege. The Angry Bear's teamspeak is open. Look for me and we can play some games.
10 Dec 2015, 17:30 PM
#229
avatar of Foxbat

Posts: 30

This whole game will soon be on life support if nothing happens with axis dominance in 3v3+ game modes. OKW are ridiculously easy to play, not to mention that Axis still are much more easier to play in those game modes without paper tanks that allies have to deal with.

And to all those people talking about 1v1: There will be no community left soon if you ignore the most played gamemodes in this game. Coh2 will never be an esport anyway, you are deluded if you really believe its gonna happen.
10 Dec 2015, 19:08 PM
#230
avatar of Nabarxos

Posts: 392

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Dec 2015, 12:34 PMwuff
The OKW are over performing in 1v1 and that effect is magnified in team games with greater resource pools.

Trying to balance the game above 1v1 is just too complicated and time consuming a task, there are just too many variables.

The only feasible approach to balance the game with relics bandwidth is to work around 1v1. In theory if every faction has a chance equal to beat its opposite it should scale up in team games.





its simple really

the problem we have for balancing 3vs3 and 4vs4 comes mainly from 2 main reasons
1)Map design(some maps are just too big)
2)Armor balance(like adding SIDE armor)

you fix those things and we are one huge step closer to balancing those team based modes

10 Dec 2015, 19:20 PM
#231
avatar of Dullahan

Posts: 1384

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Dec 2015, 17:29 PMNapalm
I just don't get where the disconnect is happening..


Sometimes a "wait and see" approach is important. I have a fundamental dislike for the OKW overhaul, but a lot of people seem to like it (with caveats). Usually though Relic's method of balancing is to make something a little overpowered, get everyone using it, and then they can tone it down from there to get it just right. It's hard to buff something that is underpowered straight to a balanced state without a lot of gameplay experience, and if no one is ever using it you simply don't have the data.

Personally I've felt the biggest problem with Coh2 is that they are too quick to compromise on their vision for the game/faction to appease the community. It no longer feels like CoH2 to me, more like CoH1.5 now. The OKW overhaul fucked so much simply because it was a half baked.
10 Dec 2015, 19:29 PM
#232
avatar of Imagelessbean

Posts: 1585 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Dec 2015, 17:29 PMNapalm
Dang, I can't believe I missed this thread.

CoH2 has been out since June, 2013. I bring this date up because it would appear that Relic really hasn't learned from the past 2 1/2 years in terms of balancing approach. I just don't get where the disconnect is happening. UKF was released in a unbalanced state right after a public Beta. These OKW changes were tested there and in an additional public balance preview patch. Many of these issues were identified there but never acted on. Why? Until that is figured out I fear that the community will continue to go through the roller coaster of shit every time a new balance patch is released.

For those taking a vacation from CoH2 try out RB6 Siege. The Angry Bear's teamspeak is open. Look for me and we can play some games.


Good post Napalm.

It is unfortunate because the Relic balance team got so much good feedback in the Patch preview thread. They even acknowledged as much in their stream of the new commanders. But then they fail to act on 95% of it. Sure some things were changed, but the majority of the changes went ahead with minimal differences, even though the community identified many of the current problems. I guess I should be thankful the Luchs got a penetration debuff before it went live?
10 Dec 2015, 20:47 PM
#233
avatar of AvNY

Posts: 862



its simple really

the problem we have for balancing 3vs3 and 4vs4 comes mainly from 2 main reasons
1)Map design(some maps are just too big)
2)Armor balance(like adding SIDE armor)

you fix those things and we are one huge step closer to balancing those team based modes



2) armor balance:

You have to stick to things that can be fixed. I don't think the "front half/back half" armor model will ever become a front/sides/back model.

The best you could possibly do is maybe change it to 40/60 (or even 30/70?) instead of 50/50 to better create weaknesses for side armor. If that % could be changed on a unit dependent basis would be even better but I am not sure that is possible.

1) Map design:

This one was probably done better in COH1. There should be more points on a 3v3 4v4 map. That can't be done if the points are all +5/+3 or +11 vs +7. If there were some actual cutoffs (0/0), or if a team's individuals only gain a % of the income, then adding more would be possible without increasing the income.

In COH1 there were some maps that didn't have anything more than +5 (muni or fuel) which limited the effect of caches. (For those who never played, in COH1 a point was either fuel or muni or nothing and came in three flavors, +5, +10, and +16, with caches bringing them to +8, +16 and +26)
10 Dec 2015, 20:55 PM
#234
avatar of AvNY

Posts: 862



Sometimes a "wait and see" approach is important. I have a fundamental dislike for the OKW overhaul, but a lot of people seem to like it (with caveats). Usually though Relic's method of balancing is to make something a little overpowered, get everyone using it, and then they can tone it down from there to get it just right. It's hard to buff something that is underpowered straight to a balanced state without a lot of gameplay experience, and if no one is ever using it you simply don't have the data.

Personally I've felt the biggest problem with Coh2 is that they are too quick to compromise on their vision for the game/faction to appease the community. It no longer feels like CoH2 to me, more like CoH1.5 now. The OKW overhaul fucked so much simply because it was a half baked.



COH1.5? If only. :)

Truth is to overhaul the OKW could have been done more simply. First take away the resource penalties and adjust all the resources coasts UP from there by the same percentage, then adjust them down slightly (then slightly again).

That the more regular, and incremental, approach isn't done leads me to think there is something else at work that we don't (and might never) know about. What if they only get the coders necessary (from other projects) on a infrequent basis? or what if there is some sort of cost accounting formula that makes it internally more attractive to do fewer (and hence bigger) patches? Might they be charged by Steam on a per patch rather than per mb basis? Someone has to be paying for the bandwidth for each patch. It may be cheap but it isn't free.
10 Dec 2015, 20:55 PM
#235
avatar of Nabarxos

Posts: 392

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Dec 2015, 20:47 PMAvNY


2) armor balance:

You have to stick to things that can be fixed. I don't think the "front half/back half" armor model will ever become a front/sides/back model.

The best you could possibly do is maybe change it to 40/60 (or even 30/70?) instead of 50/50 to better create weaknesses for side armor. If that % could be changed on a unit dependent basis would be even better but I am not sure that is possible.

1) Map design:

This one was probably done better in COH1. There should be more points on a 3v3 4v4 map. That can't be done if the points are all +5/+3 or +11 vs +7. If there were some actual cutoffs (0/0), or if a team's individuals only gain a % of the income, then adding more would be possible without increasing the income.

In COH1 there were some maps that didn't have anything more than +5 (muni or fuel) which limited the effect of caches. (For those who never played, in COH1 a point was either fuel or muni or nothing and came in three flavors, +5, +10, and +16, with caches bringing them to +8, +16 and +26)


its best to put add side armor,again i am not a fan of this "less frontal more rear" but it can do the job.

now that you mention it maybe its time to introduce the OLD economy system from vCOH to 3vs3s and 4vs4 and make caches more like boosting the income of said sector without giving free fuel and munitions
10 Dec 2015, 21:06 PM
#236
avatar of iTzDusty

Posts: 836 | Subs: 5



On a sideNote: can someone go for #1 rank 4v4 from these 1v1 heroes? It takes the same skill so shouldnt be a problem :^)



10 Dec 2015, 21:09 PM
#237
avatar of Nabarxos

Posts: 392

HOTFIX PATCH INCOMING TODAY
10 Dec 2015, 21:21 PM
#238
avatar of dpfarce

Posts: 308

10 Dec 2015, 21:23 PM
#239
avatar of Nabarxos

Posts: 392

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Dec 2015, 21:21 PMdpfarce


with AXIS he is first place with premades
10 Dec 2015, 21:24 PM
#240
avatar of iTzDusty

Posts: 836 | Subs: 5

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Dec 2015, 21:21 PMdpfarce



You know thats not my playercard right.

It literally proves my point of how easy it was to climb the 3v3 ladder.

Those are the stats of my high school friend. Hes pretty bad at this game.
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