Croc price increase too much?

Range and vet and +20 fuel will be great, not making the croc same price as HT

Give it back old stats and u can increase cost

Give it back old stats and u can increase cost

Haha, I think you haven't faced it that much with its old stats have you? That thing was blatently op.

Haha, I think you haven't faced it that much with its old stats have you? That thing was blatently op.

I'm not saying about old old stats from release I'm talking about normal range dmg is ok, could be better but it's ok but that range...

Haha, I think you haven't faced it that much with its old stats have you? That thing was blatently op.

Would you rather take KT that is godly both against infantry and tanks or croc that is better against inf but sucks against tank? In my opinion AT is worth more late game.

I have played many times against croc based strategy after release and it was always one of two scenarios:
1. I kill the croc and opponent surrenders because he didnt manage to deal enough damage to turn the tide after long wait.
2. I kill the croc sacrifising a lot to do so and then 2nd croc arrives out of nowhere finishing the game.

It means that if the croc was 720/260 it would be no problem as brits would have no chance to build one after another.

Lmfao people in this thread actually thinking the croc gets blocked by 1 tank

Don't understand this change. Veterancy and range nerf was enough. This tank just doesn't have the utility of other heavies. Relic pls.

Lmfao people in this thread actually thinking the croc gets blocked by 1 tank

Yeah, the Croc's main gun isn't bad at all vs medium tanks, it is not good against Panthers or Tigers, but it definitely isn't terrible at AT like some people think.

Goodbye Vanguard commander, it's nice knowing you.

stop looking at the unit in a vacuum, and look at it in the perspective of the WHOLE faction. the crocodile + at gun synergy is extremely strong. with basically pak40 stats, it has good chance to penetrate even heavy armor at max range. what is the counter to a croc? as you guys say, dedicated TD, other heavy armor, and AT guns. AT guns can quickly become invalidated by the croc itself since it just burns them to death while tanking a few shots. literally the only tank that can handle AT guns this well is probably the KT, but even then it can miss shots. THE FLAMER ON THE CROC CANNOT MISS. infantry is also held at bay/driven off because they cant stand up to the croc. this leaves armor to counter the croc. well, guess what? the brits have access to a fucking pak40 that counters armor. if you need a more mobile option, you can use comets or fireflies.

another issue with the croc is even though its killable (albeit difficult) its very possible to keep it alive until you have enough fuel to call in another one (in live). so as an axis player, you just spent all these resources to kill a croc, and then the brit player suddenly calls in another one.

-snip-

Of course the Croc + AT gun synergy is very potent, but the AT guns are very immobile, and the Croc itself only fares slightly better. You will almost always be on the defensive with this setup, as trying to move up the Croc and the 2-3 AT guns you need to counter the heavy armour that arrives at the same time as the Croc will be extremely lackluster for many reasons. The Croc's most potent weapon, the flamethrower, is fixed to the front of the tank and it turns itself pretty damn slow, which means if you spread out your infantry to flank it's supporting AT guns and watch as the Croc turns ever so slowly to attack each individual squad and then move up your own tanks and AT to attack the Croc, it is in a pretty bad place for itself.

So you can invest in more mobile TD's like you said (I personally will discount the firefly since it's pretty terrible at this point unless you have a couple hundred muni to throw into the tulips), so that leaves the Comet, which is a 500MP/185FU investment, not counting the 200MP/50FU you need for the first one, which also locks out heavy engineers, which means the Croc it's supporting will be very slow to repair. On top of this, this also means the odds of your opponent being able to replace a destroyed Croc immediately is very low, unless he's dominating all of the map and not bleeding manpower at all, and if that's the case something went wrong.

In all honesty though the price can be increased to 200FU IMO (and even keep the heavy manpower cost) if the other changes were reverted (most notably the flamethrower range nerf) and it would still be a worthy investment. Otherwise, anything other than it's current live cost is too steep.

Making it the cost of a standard heavy tank just isn't a good idea, since tanks of the same cost are more generalist and can engage a wide variety of threats at decent effectiveness, while the Croc itself is only good against infantry and weapons teams, which shouldn't be unsupported by armour in the late stages of the game anyway. To further add to the Croc's cost you'll probably need some extra AT guns. True usually 1-2 is usually the standard build, but if you start facing a lot of armour you're going to need 3 or more and that just sort of adds an invisible cost to the Croc itself.

Yeah, the Croc's main gun isn't bad at all vs medium tanks, it is not good against Panthers or Tigers, but it definitely isn't terrible at AT like some people think.

Its penetration isn't terrible, its DPS is.

It might finish off low hp med, but it won't be killing anything.

I'm not saying about old old stats from release I'm talking about normal range dmg is ok, could be better but it's ok but that range...

Oh yes, then indeed, I agree. My appologies, I misinterpreted your points.

Would you rather take KT that is godly both against infantry and tanks or croc that is better against inf but sucks against tank? In my opinion AT is worth more late game.

I have played many times against croc based strategy after release and it was always one of two scenarios:
1. I kill the croc and opponent surrenders because he didnt manage to deal enough damage to turn the tide after long wait.
2. I kill the croc sacrifising a lot to do so and then 2nd croc arrives out of nowhere finishing the game.

It means that if the croc was 720/260 it would be no problem as brits would have no chance to build one after another.

Weird, I mostly saw one outcome: Totall annihilation and destruction due to incendiary doom.

You are comparing a KingTiger to a Crocodile, this by itself is enough to not even react to such a statement.

The croc is fine now in its current form, the cost however, that is a bit to much. 200 fuel would be fine. People tend to forget it can do decent AT damage as well.

It gets countered by 135fuel/400 mp (JP4), u know that right? or even Stug G, or any other armor

I question the fact u suit being strategist in this forum, with the tanks you compared/mentioned there, which are all very strong vs any armor in the game!

Ah sorry you misunderstood me. Imean mean that it is only good agains infantry AT , not tankish AT and opponent also said that this tank is only one that can counter it so i just told him there are many more tanks that can do this too. I also forgot to add here thse tanks (tigers) can generally go toe to toe with slower tank destroyers . But you know , whne you does not have so much time and you just want to tell someone that his post is completely irelewant (hi donniechan) that you dont have so much time to write him everything behind tank performance you simply tell him shortest argument and that was here are even others tanks that can destroy at guns as good as croco and does not need to cost 300 fuel and be unavalibe because they counter single AT gun

Ah sorry you misunderstood me. Imean mean that it is only good agains infantry AT , not tankish AT and opponent also said that this tank is only one that can counter it so i just told him there are many more tanks that can do this too. I also forgot to add here thse tanks (tigers) can generally go toe to toe with slower tank destroyers . But you know , whne you does not have so much time and you just want to tell someone that his post is completely irelewant (hi donniechan) that you dont have so much time to write him everything behind tank performance you simply tell him shortest argument and that was here are even others tanks that can destroy at guns as good as croco and does not need to cost 300 fuel and be unavalibe because they counter single AT gun

Alright, fair enough ;P

Goodbye Vanguard commander, it's nice knowing you.

everything in the commander is overpriced

you're shooting yourself in the foot if you invest in any of the abilities over your vanilla alternatives.

it's just a shame because commandos and the croc are really cool units with great voice acting, but whenever I spend 500mp for a squad I am basically throwing the game.

Too bad the sniper is going to join that list next patch, now brits will have no AT snare for the flame HT or Luch

That does seem overly expensive. If a unit is priced to cost as much as a Tiger, I'd expect it to perform like one. But the Croc is useless against anything but infantry and support teams. Sure, it shreds PaKs and shrecks, but that's why you use your own tanks to counter it since it can't fight back.

I mean, it's not like the existing heavies in that price range (Tiger, IS-2, Pershing) perform badly against infantry either. Compared to those, the Croc seems very overpriced.

stop looking at the unit in a vacuum, and look at it in the perspective of the WHOLE faction. the crocodile + at gun synergy is extremely strong. with basically pak40 stats, it has good chance to penetrate even heavy armor at max range.

True; consider other things together. The 6-pounder just got a price increase (deserved IMO considering stats comparison with Pak40), but the Pak40 performs better in general not because it has better stats, but because it will more often penetrate Allied tanks with less armour and so get vet faster on top of TWP. With the 6-pounder's 190 pen at max range it will still only have 59% chance of penetrating Panther frontal armour.

On top generally Axis has good weapon-team wiping arty in the form of Pwerfer (even when I move as soon as I hear the sound I almost always get decrew) and the stuka. This leaves Comets and FFs as the main AT.

In addition to the price increase the Croc's stas also got nerfed. While I saw the Croc probably needed some nerfs as it was really difficult to take out while supported, I cannot say whether the exact changes are the right moves since I haven't played that many balance preview games. I can say, as a player, if the Croc remains at 230FU, I will go for comets instead since I cannot guarantee enough AT support in the form of other tanks; there is no StuG equivalent for UKF. If somehow the AT guns are taken out, or if the Croc gets engine snared and Panthers, StuGs, JP4s, etc. chase it, you're literally defenseless especially since UKF does not have snares in general. This is considering other things together.

at the end of the day, i think with these changes you wont be able to magically pull a victory out of your ass when you call in a croc (like i have done many times in 1v1s), and instead the better player will win a match.