The new OKW design

Some of the changes from the patch log are incredibly awesome and enough to breathe life into this game. Others will need to be toned down before release, otherwise the bad changes will completely overshadow the good. Of course that is what preview mods always were for - to see what works and what doesn't. However, while I feel balance will sort itself out sooner or later, I feel a deeper problem - Relic has completely lost their compass for OKW.

I've been with the OKW since WFA early alpha, I saw the experiment in Brits alpha, and I generally like to play as OKW, so I know all the crazy shit Relic tried to do with the faction. With the new patch seems like a godsend at first, allow me to rain on the parade a bit and express my concerns about the following problems of style, design, vision and balance.

Homogenization of the game. OKW is being brought to be more similar with the other factions. This is a matter of preference, but it does make the game seem blander and it does remove one of the most interesting aspects of OKW. As long as each faction has distinct teching, I could deal with some homogenization, but I strongly believe OKW could have been balanced without removing the resource penalty. We all learned to play with and against it. OKW had problems, it was frustrating to play with and against sometimes, but its main problems were that their core infantry (Volks, Sturms) couldn't really hold their weight against allied infantry. Volks buff should make this a bit easier now, but the removal of fuel penalties changes literally nothing in this equation, whereas it only makes OKW post-T4 lategame even stronger, buffing literally the only aspect of that faction where they didn't need a leg up.

Resource penalty removal In return for resource penalty, OKW had excellent specialist units, very flexible teching, strong manpower-only army, AND vet5. Relic removed the resource penalty, but toned down vet4 and vet5 bonuses. Does Relic really not realize that all the other advantages that OKW got in compensation for resource penalties have been left untouched? OKW Panzer is better than Ostheer Panzer, OKW Panther can come way earlier than Ostheer Panther, both these tanks are in a faction that will distribute Schrecks to its infantry like candy and that that has a non-doctrinal King Tiger which is now no more of an investment than an IS2 is for a Soviet player?

Without the resource penalty, how on earth can you keep justifying 5 ammo infiltration grenades? How can LMG34s still cost 60 ammo? How can you look an Ostheer player in the eye and explain to him that you unlock a Panther (without even rushing or sacrificing part of your tech) after 110 fuel? Sure, Teching was made a bit more expensive through the addition of a small cost for the sws truck, but in the long run OKW have the best tech buildings concept in the game. By the way, I am not afraid of the 6 minute Luchs. It is so hilariously insanely overpowered that I am confident it will not make it into the main game.

Oh, and let it sink in for a second that this supposed faction of specialists will now have the hands-down best and most versatile core infantry unit in the game.

Volksgrenadiers: I love these guys. I really do. Everyone and his dog already knows that all inherent problems with Volks comes from Panzerschrecks. Volks only ever struggled in anti-infantry department, and what does Relic do? They do a double whammy (reduce the Panzerschreck ammo cost while removing the ammo penalty) that further saturates the map with Schrecks, making life more difficult for light vehicles, which will in effect force allied players to - you guessed it - opt for more infantry... the one thing Volks already struggle against.

Kubelwagens: Someone over at Relic really has a desperate boner for a Kubelwagen as a core early game OKW unit. This is okay, I suppose, but they appear to forget that suppression is a rather important part of the CoH franchise and a good way to deal with blobs.

Please ask yourselves - what is the role of the Kubelwagen now, and did OKW really have a hole which that role fills? OKW never struggled in cap power. They already had the best early game capping potential of all the factions except maybe Soviet conspam - they start with a unit that can chase off all other capper squads 1 on 1, and they can outproduce cheap infantry. Why on earth would they need a fast, cheap, capping vehicle and lose their only non-doctrinal suppression platform in the process, when they already have Volks?

I am not saying Kubels will not be built - they will. In spades. And it will free up more Volks to do the actual fighting. Which I gather was the point, but Volks could already handle capping on their own.

Conclusion: No matter how much I love most of the changes in the patch preview (hooray for Industry and CAS changes) I sincerely hope Relic gets their pudding together and decide where they are going with OKW's design. We are very close to have a nice faction revamp, but I fear that the new OKW will lose all their weaknesses while keeping all the good stuff they got in return for those weaknesses in the first place.

OKW got upset that they couldn't dominate early game as easily, despite being able to do so in late game.

I think the worst part is that 70 ammo shreks in conjunction with 100% ammo. Really Relic? Is their balance designer a monkey, or did they actually think, "you know that shrek spam everyone complains about? I like it"

OkW needs adjustments, not sweeping changes.

Penalties can be fixed with fuel/ammo cost changes.

Sucky volks can be fixed with slightly better vet.

Bad early game can be fixed with buffs to mech hq and sturms.

This changes are huge mistake, and would result in balance disaster for half of next year.

I have to agree - OKW is easily my most played faction. Kubel has a weird role now, I don't really like the changes to it. The only reason to build it currently is for its suppression, what's its role meant to be now other than to frustrate other players by zipping around the map capping.

100% munitions PLUS shrek cost reduction! Why oh why. Volks only needed a buff to their AI capabilities, not an incentive to blob more shreks. This will heavily punish light vehicle play for allies which will lead to even more infantry blobbing!

The faction flavour was cool - less resources with rewards for better play and unit preservation. This should have been the focus of the changes imo - vet 4 + 5 requirements should have been looked at and tweaked to make the 5 vet system worth while.

That said, there are definitely changes I do like. I like easy access to the flak HT and I think it makes sense to have the Luchs in mechanised BUT it's timing is currently too fast.

the resource penalty serves no point; you can get the same effect strange mechanics that are transparent to the player by removing the penalty and increasing costs. right now the resource penalty encourages infantry spam and makes vehicle loss exceptionally punishing while also limiting OKW's options due to affordability. i do suspect that it's going to take a while to get all the resource costs adjusted though, particularly in commanders.

as for the rest of the changes, they feel incomplete to me but they're limited to the balance preview so i'll wait. i would rather we got a complete overhaul then two halves though as partial changes tend to be very damaging.

Calm down boys this patch is nowhere near finished and OKW will see cost adjustments

I do think that JP4 should be nerfed now, and call in infantry.

Homogenization of the game. OKW is being brought to be more similar with the other factions. This is a matter of preference, but it does make the game seem blander and it does remove one of the most interesting aspects of OKW. As long as each faction has distinct teching, I could deal with some homogenization, but I strongly believe OKW could have been balanced without removing the resource penalty

Resource penalty is not interesting, its just frustrating. It has been designed with the aspect that OKW gets better units, however this is not true anymore. Right now OKW pays more for units that are equal or worse than their counterparts (except for the JP4). That's why the resource penalty makes no sense.

its main problems were that their core infantry (Volks, Sturms) couldn't really hold their weight against allied infantry.

I agree here, that was the problem. 20 % more damage however let volks perform well enough to fill the gap till Obers.

Volks buff should make this a bit easier now, but the removal of fuel penalties changes literally nothing in this equation, whereas it only makes OKW post-T4 lategame even stronger, buffing literally the only aspect of that faction where they didn't need a leg up.

Can we please stop this "strong late game myth". You can't keep up armour production in late game and your volks bleed your harder than rifles bleed you as an USF player due low received acc. Your vet 5 means shit when you never get it if you lose squads or units simply never reach it unless its a 4vs4 stomp.

Resource penalty removal In return for resource penalty, OKW had excellent specialist units, very flexible teching, strong manpower-only army, AND vet5. Relic removed the resource penalty, but toned down vet4 and vet5 bonuses.

Vet 4 & 5 is in some cases right now worse than what other factions get with vet 1-3. There are only a few exceptions for this.

Does Relic really not realize that all the other advantages that OKW got in compensation for resource penalties have been left untouched? OKW Panzer is better than Ostheer Panzer, OKW Panther can come way earlier than Ostheer Panther.How can you look an Ostheer player in the eye and explain to him that you unlock a Panther (without even rushing or sacrificing part of your tech) after 110 fuel?

OKW P4 is the most expensive medium tank with 640 hp it gets a bit more armour than an Easy8 but always gets stomped by it non the less. If anything I'd say the OStheer P4 is overpriced. That the Panther arrives to late for Ostheer is something everybody can agree on, but then again it's not an okw issue.

has a non-doctrinal King Tiger which is now no more of an investment than an IS2 is for a Soviet player?

First time I hear that an IS2 costs 260 fuel and needs all techs unlocked.

Without the resource penalty, how on earth can you keep justifying 5 ammo infiltration grenades? How can LMG34s still cost 60 ammo? Sure, Teching was made a bit more expensive through the addition of a small cost for the sws truck, but in the long run OKW have the best tech buildings concept in the game.

That's exactly the aim with the change, to give okw some initiative with increased ammo. Sure some abilities need to be looked at, especially infiltration grenades as the exact same ability costs 30 munitions on Assault Grenadiers. But Obers got once their LMG for free and with the nerfs that followed, they became non meta. The new changes will bring a fresh wind and people will build them again.

By the way, I am not afraid of the 6 minute Luchs. It is so hilariously insanely overpowered that I am confident it will not make it into the main game.

Luchs timing needs to be changed so it comes at the same time as stuart and Luchs. That can be achieved by reducing starting fuel to 15, as this functions as a 2 min tech delay.

Oh, and let it sink in for a second that this supposed faction of specialists will now have the hands-down best and most versatile core infantry unit in the game.

Come on, thats simply not true, no snare, no ai still losing to other mainline infantry. Don't know why you call that versatile.

Volksgrenadiers: I love these guys. I really do. Everyone and his dog already knows that all inherent problems with Volks comes from Panzerschrecks. Volks only ever struggled in anti-infantry department, and what does Relic do? They do a double whammy (reduce the Panzerschreck ammo cost while removing the ammo penalty) that further saturates the map with Schrecks, making life more difficult for light vehicles, which will in effect force allied players to - you guessed it - opt for more infantry... the one thing Volks already struggle against.

Yes schreck blobs are cancer, I would be happy if schrecks would be removed to volks and they get an AI upgrade instead, like 3x Stg44. So positiong and flanking actually matters with them.

Kubelwagens: Someone over at Relic really has a desperate boner for a Kubelwagen as a core early game OKW unit. This is okay, I suppose, but they appear to forget that suppression is a rather important part of the CoH franchise and a good way to deal with blobs.

Thats right, every faction should have a MP only suppression unit. However the Kübel never made it over minute 10. Now it can be still a harassing unit in every state of the game. I also don't like the Kübel change because it will encourage pushing.

Please ask yourselves - what is the role of the Kubelwagen now, and did OKW really have a hole which that role fills? OKW never struggled in cap power. They already had the best early game capping potential of all the factions except maybe Soviet conspam - they start with a unit that can chase off all other capper squads 1 on 1, and they can outproduce cheap infantry.

Myths over myths. 5 mp difference means litteraly 2 seconds. 45 Mp difference is 18 seconds. You lose all engangments against mainline infantry and no opponent will build only engineers. They are not cheap to maintain, as they bleed more in late game due received accuracy allies get.

Conclusion: No matter how much I love most of the changes in the patch preview (hooray for Industry and CAS changes) I sincerely hope Relic gets their pudding together and decide where they are going with OKW's design. We are very close to have a nice faction revamp, but I fear that the new OKW will lose all their weaknesses while keeping all the good stuff they got in return for those weaknesses in the first place.

Those changes are of course not perfect, therefore its a preview, but its far better than what we have now!

Let the fight begin

Well they already changed stuff in the patch, so....

Calm down boys this patch is nowhere near finished and OKW will see cost adjustments

Boy, can't wait for all the units to be 33% more expensive to balance them...

Fusillier horde meta incoming people.

Boy, can't wait for all the units to be 33% more expensive to balance them...

Well seems they took the other way round and reduced the starting fuel

Well seems they took the other way round and reduced the starting fuel

Still doesn't fix the problem.

p4, panther etc are still way cheaper for OKW than Ostheer, for example. Even if you get all three trucks (which you don't have to do atm) a panther is like 100 fuel cheaper than ostheer.

Well seems they took the other way round and reduced the starting fuel

Seems fair, the 3 minute luch seems wrong on the paper.

5 vet system should be removed because resource penalty is gone.

Seems fair, the 3 minute luch seems wrong on the paper.

5 minute one will be equally bad.
Everyone who played WFA alpha will recognize this.

OpKW

This patch remove allies from team games.

(snip)

Holy mother of point-by-point refutals! Unfortunately most of the thigns you said is a matter of opinion, which could just as easily be said for my original post. What is frustrating to you may be fun to me. What makes sense to me might not to you. And I freely admit that. I LOVED the fact OKW was so unique and I argued against resource penalty removals many times before. But then... remember when they removed the penalty for ammo (from 66% total received to 100% total) and then they had to release basically a hotfix to compromise at 80%? And that was when Schrecks were still 90 a pop! I see nothing changed in the meantime, so I am not sure what gives them the idea that it will be balanced this time around.

Some things are really not subjective, some things are up to numbers. I do not feel that OKW units are worse than their counterparts. The Panzer is better than other mediums (T34/85 beats it for cost but it is doctrinal, after all). The Panther is completely the same except it comes in what is basically T3 for Ostheer. Obers are more useful than Panzergrenadiers, Ostheer doesn't even have a Luchs equivalent.

The strong late game of OKW is not a myth. Strong late game depends on more things than just armor mass. OKW was designed around the fact you can't spam armour (in teamgames you often float fuel towards the end game so the point is moot anyway). Volks could obtain vet5 pretty regularly in 1v1s, and I wouldn't say they bled you much because they are dirt cheap to reinforce.

Oh, and regarding this:

First time I hear that an IS2 costs 260 fuel and needs all techs unlocked.

This point literally only applies for people who stall for IS2 without teching, in which case, sorry, you should have punished that. Getting all three tier buildings as OKW is now 170 fuel, for which they get a medic bunker, a repair point, and a very good defensive position, and all abilities / grenades unlocked. Soviets going T2 / T3 with at least some sideteching is not far off from the 170 mark, (except they don't get forward retreat, they don't get free repairs, and they don't get a defensive structure). So OKW has a clear advantage on the Soviets thanks to the teching now.

Myths over myths. 5 mp difference means litteraly 2 seconds. 45 Mp difference is 18 seconds. You lose all engangments against mainline infantry and no opponent will build only engineers. They are not cheap to maintain, as they bleed more in late game due received accuracy allies get.

Only 1 of the 3 allied factions has 240mp infantry, the others are at a 45 manpower difference, which adds up significantly in term of both reinforcement and number of squads on the field. What do you want, Volks to stand up to Rifles and IS 1 on 1?

Conscripts are the only ones which cost similar, but they have better anti infantry DPS at close range. The Volks / Cons disparity will not lose you the game, however, because in the very earliest game it is negated by immediate Sturmpio squad, and later on, by the fact OKW has to spend less manpower teching.

As for your remarks about Kubel, I guess I can agree there. So there's at least something.

I have no doubt Relic will fix all this balance-wise. It might take them several patches, but they will. But they have a well known one step forward / two steps back approach and of the many, many ways OKW could have been redesigned, this was, I feel, not the best way forward, neither design- nor balance-wise.

Regarding Luchs, I have nothing to say, really, except it was in the non-last truck once before, in WFA alpha, and it was a nightmare to balance until they moved it to the last truck.