How tank with better penetration and better armor can loose to tank with worse pen and worse armor? Really how.
the comet's gun fires faster and neither tank has 100% penetration chance against the other, even at close range
OKW Panther vs UKF Comet
12 Nov 2015, 19:03 PM
#41
Posts: 26
the comet's gun fires faster and neither tank has 100% penetration chance against the other, even at close range
12 Nov 2015, 19:07 PM
#42
Posts: 89
RNGs gods have failed you, from my experience panthers win most battles.
Team game player.
All factions Player.
All factions Player.
12 Nov 2015, 19:07 PM
#43
Posts: 1217
How tank with better penetration and better armor can loose to tank with worse pen and worse armor? Really how.With a shit rof anything is possible. Pretty much THE value that makes me not build Panthers at all. The StuG dmg output is significantly higher and that for not even half the cost.
12 Nov 2015, 19:09 PM
#44
Posts: 210
The fact that this entire game is built on RNG... it's not surprising that the Comet can maybe win against a Panther, but that's not very often. The Panther will beat out the Comet the majority of the time.
And people seriously need to start looking at vet bonuses before arguing about cost efficiency. A vetted Panther is no contest.
And people seriously need to start looking at vet bonuses before arguing about cost efficiency. A vetted Panther is no contest.
12 Nov 2015, 19:13 PM
#45
Posts: 1217
And people seriously need to start looking at vet bonuses before arguing about cost efficiency. A vetted Panther is no contest.In case you were referring to me: The StuG gets -10% and -30% reload on vet2 and 3. Apply that to the already higher rof and you have an incredible damage output. Versus Brits and their Churchills/ Comets the StuG is way more attractive.
12 Nov 2015, 19:15 PM
#46
Posts: 210
I always thought the Stug was OP but that's just me. It shoots like a machine gun. Like... I don't even know why the Stug's DPS is so insanely high when it really just has to compete against Shermans and Cromwells the majority of the time.
12 Nov 2015, 19:16 PM
#47
Posts: 509
In case you were referring to me: The StuG gets -10% and -30% reload on vet2 and 3. Apply that to the already higher rof and you have an incredible damage output. Versus Brits and their Churchills/ Comets the StuG is way more attractive.
+1.
Only circumstance where that doesn't work is when a FF is right behind the churchill, cause of that 60 range advantage it can fire at StuG while StuG fires at churchill.
12 Nov 2015, 19:36 PM
#48
Posts: 21
the comet's gun fires faster and neither tank has 100% penetration chance against the other, even at close range
Bro this thread is every answer you need.
This unit to unit cost vs effectiveness comparison can be made across the board and you'll say 'wut?' after you look at the numbers, yet you'll come on here and hear a completely different tune.
We all know Relic is notoriously bad at balancing, and now with CoH2 they listen to those who scream the loudest in this community. Its a terrible combination.
Katitof basically embodies this loud Allied fanboy syndrome this game suffers from.
12 Nov 2015, 20:03 PM
#49
Posts: 1384
You're too easily discounting the differences in armour and penetration. The Panther typically fights tanks that can barely penetrate it, or tank destroyers that it can handily kill in 2-3 shots The comet is going up against much more durable tank destroyers and a stronger arsenal of medium/heavy tanks. In this regard, the Panther is nigh untouchable while the Comet is barely on par.
OKW units aren't magically more expensive either. They get slightly less income from resource points. If they hold more resource points, scavenge or convert they're ahead of their opponent regardless of their penalty.
Not to mention that the comet requires a 200/50 specialization. This locks out useful tech.
I wouldn't mind Panthers being a bit better against infantry. They don't do terrible when upgraded with an MG but I always thought it was pretty dumb that tank destroyers had such poor accuracy versus infantry. Pretty sure a panzerscreck does much better.
OKW units aren't magically more expensive either. They get slightly less income from resource points. If they hold more resource points, scavenge or convert they're ahead of their opponent regardless of their penalty.
Not to mention that the comet requires a 200/50 specialization. This locks out useful tech.
I wouldn't mind Panthers being a bit better against infantry. They don't do terrible when upgraded with an MG but I always thought it was pretty dumb that tank destroyers had such poor accuracy versus infantry. Pretty sure a panzerscreck does much better.
12 Nov 2015, 20:43 PM
#50
Posts: 479
doctrinal?
The OKW Panther has Blitzkrieg at Vet 1. Panzer Tactician is on most of Ostheer's strongest commanders at 2 CP.
The OKW Panther has Blitzkrieg at Vet 1. Panzer Tactician is on most of Ostheer's strongest commanders at 2 CP.
12 Nov 2015, 21:07 PM
#51
Posts: 670
my understanding of asymmetrical balancing would be two armies a,b with one having a unit that costs 300 that wins exactly against the 3 units of the other army costing 300 in total. thats asymmetrical balance to me. not one of the 3 units costing 100 beating the unit for 300 which is allegedly justfied because Army A gets a good counter to that in late game.
i dont want both units to cost the same while having the same performance i want the more expensive one to counter a unit that is cheaper and it is supposed to counter, is that really so hard to understand?
What the hell, do you know what micro tax is
I myself bought 14 OKW factions during a Steam sale last year for alt accounts
12 Nov 2015, 21:08 PM
#52
Posts: 26
doctrinal?
The OKW Panther has Blitzkrieg at Vet 1. Panzer Tactician is on most of Ostheer's strongest commanders at 2 CP.
the fact that its indeed a very strong OST commander doesnt change it being a doctrinal ability.
nobody would claim USF has such strong late game with the pershing and rangers, dismissing the fact these are doctrinal units as well, even though heavy cavalary is at the moment probably a no-brain pick for most US players
12 Nov 2015, 21:31 PM
#53
Posts: 1225
For clarification, PAKs are only German, AT gun is the correct term, just so you don't confuse people.
Also don't do this whole "OKW fuel" thing, it still costs less fuel than the UKF Comet, it doesn't matter that there is a fuel penalty because with proper map control you'll always get the Panther out before the Comet because the Comet costs more.
Pak is simply the generic german term for AT gun. There are Soviet paks, US paks, you get the point.
12 Nov 2015, 21:34 PM
#54
Posts: 2723 | Subs: 1
Pak is simply the generic german term for AT gun. There are Soviet paks, US paks, you get the point.
Oi! Stop trying to hinder my argument!
The internal battery has run dry, the game can now be played. However, clock based events will no longer occur.
12 Nov 2015, 23:33 PM
#55
8 Posts: 2470
the V vs comet fights comes down to RNG, much like the 34/76 vs the IV fight. the 34/76 can win that even though it costs 45 fuel less, NOT including tech costs which are NOT part of the unit cost and ONLY effect timing.
13 Nov 2015, 08:10 AM
#56
Posts: 128
The economic advantage of one faction has no bearing over a fight between the two units when they are on the field, the OKW having less fuel income does not actually affect the Panther's ability to be a tank hunter.
It only effects the field presence/timing.
This is not to the guy I quoted but to EVERYONE
OKW FUEL ECONOMY is a factor..for TIME.
A non supercharged okw economy delays the timing of the unit compared to another factions economy. The reason why this whole cost more thing came up is due to the fact of by the time you have 175 fuel the other player would have 200 (random number example I know its not 133% of 175)
So no the tank doesn't cost 232, but the opponent fuel (unless economy supercharge or just outplayed) should have more fuel generated overall. Now next thing to consider is teching cost.
Just had to throw that out there I get a cringe every time the OKW fuel argument goes out there and its not done properly.
13 Nov 2015, 09:19 AM
#57
Posts: 1930
The problem isn't the Comet or the panther, it's the OKW.
the OKW panther cost the "same" as the wehr panther and perform almost exactly the same.
Wehr panther vs Comet is balanced because the Comet is a more expensive tank which had to sacrifice anti-tank power for anti-infantry power. A wehr panther will beat Comet most of the time, and that's okay since panther is an anti-tank specialist versus the generalist comet.
What to do with the OKW panther then? Taking the income penalty into account, the okw panther cost 50% more than the wehr panther. Does the OKW panther need to be 50% more powerful than the wehr panther?
the OKW panther cost the "same" as the wehr panther and perform almost exactly the same.
Wehr panther vs Comet is balanced because the Comet is a more expensive tank which had to sacrifice anti-tank power for anti-infantry power. A wehr panther will beat Comet most of the time, and that's okay since panther is an anti-tank specialist versus the generalist comet.
What to do with the OKW panther then? Taking the income penalty into account, the okw panther cost 50% more than the wehr panther. Does the OKW panther need to be 50% more powerful than the wehr panther?
13 Nov 2015, 09:49 AM
#58
2 
Posts: 1108
once the okw panther gets vet2,he's completely outclass the comet anyway.
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13 Nov 2015, 10:10 AM
#59
Posts: 1653
Pz4 --> JPz4 or JPz4 --> Pz4 is for OKW a way better thing to go than going for a panther. (I use 3x +5% armor bullitin for Pz4 and it got insane AI + insane front armour) JPz4 just rips everything apart when going above vet 2.
13 Nov 2015, 10:12 AM
#60
Posts: 1653
once the okw panther gets vet2,he's completely outclass the comet anyway.
True on every bit, and the OKW panther isn't that bad in AI if you compare it to the Ostheer panther.
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