OKW Panther vs UKF Comet

The problem isn't the Comet or the panther, it's the OKW.

the OKW panther cost the "same" as the wehr panther and perform almost exactly the same.

Wehr panther vs Comet is balanced because the Comet is a more expensive tank which had to sacrifice anti-tank power for anti-infantry power. A wehr panther will beat Comet most of the time, and that's okay since panther is an anti-tank specialist versus the generalist comet.

What to do with the OKW panther then? Taking the income penalty into account, the okw panther cost 50% more than the wehr panther. Does the OKW panther need to be 50% more powerful than the wehr panther?

The OKW panther preforms better than the Ostheer panther first of all because of the fact that the AI capability is way better, second fact is the 5 vet levels you can obtain. Yes it's hard to get, but lately with Brits I find it way easier to get my Panther to vet 3-5 which it completely obliterate any tank/infantry and with a JPz4 in the back it's GG mostly of the time.

The problem isn't the Comet or the panther, it's the OKW.

the OKW panther cost the "same" as the wehr panther and perform almost exactly the same.

Wehr panther vs Comet is balanced because the Comet is a more expensive tank which had to sacrifice anti-tank power for anti-infantry power. A wehr panther will beat Comet most of the time, and that's okay since panther is an anti-tank specialist versus the generalist comet.

What to do with the OKW panther then? Taking the income penalty into account, the okw panther cost 50% more than the wehr panther. Does the OKW panther need to be 50% more powerful than the wehr panther?

Pretty much this. And besides, a PzV is a bigger AT investment for OKW because your don't have reliable AI capabilities for late game. Volks suck, no HMG and you only have StuKa for late game which is overrated.

So as Ostheer, you have Grens, Pzgrens (if you manage to vet them) and probably one or two vetted HMG42s, on top of that a Pak and a PzV can deal with anything that allies can throw at you. Let's not forget Pzwerfer.

As OKW though, you are better off calling in a JpIV and a luchs or Flak track, both of which are not that great versus infantry and have huge micro tax.

True on every bit, and the OKW panther isn't that bad in AI if you compare it to the Ostheer panther.

OKW:



OSTHEER:



as we can see, their top gunners do have the same DPS, their combined (avg(far + near)) hull-mg DPS is pretty much the same and the OKW panthers coaxial mg is higher, but nothing to write home about.
i dont think these stats warrant the implication the OKW panther is a good or even decent AI tank or has particularly better AI capabilities compared to his OST-brother

EDIT: i just noticed the OKW panther has more DPS at close range, what the hell?

because your entire fucking army has panzershrecks?

To me that directly translates to "don't bother building a Panther, it's not worth the cost and you have plenty alternatives for the same job.

Which leads us to the core problem of this thread: The Panther sucks at doing what it was meant to excel at. At least in theory. And historically.

...
Which leads us to the core problem of this thread: The Panther sucks at doing what it was meant to excel at. ...

that perfectly sums up part of what i was trying to communicate with this thread.

personally, think the panthers low DPS is the issue here. Armor is excellent at 320 front, penetration is excellent, speed and accelaration appropriate, but the fire-rate too low. the panther fires every 7.38 seconds.

performance simply doesn't quite match the price-tag. a 175 fuel TD is supposed to wreck every other non-TD tank, only bowing to the heavies of call-ins(IS-2, pershing, ISU)

If I'm not wrong the front armor of 320 is at vet 2, normally it has 290 if I'm not wrong

If I'm not wrong the front armor of 320 is at vet 2, normally it has 290 if I'm not wrong

you are wrong here. the panther has 320 front standard which at vet2 is increased by 10% giving it 352 armor in total.

at least according to both coh-stats.com as well as stat.coh2.hu . i don't claim to have put in the values in the xml-source-files myself

you are wrong here. the panther has 320 front standard which at vet2 is increased by 10% giving it 352 armor in total.

at least according to both coh-stats.com as well as stat.coh2.hu . i don't claim to have put in the values in the xml-source-files myself

Its vet 2 bonus is BS. +10% armour +20% health, +40% weapon rotation speed? Wtf?

almost the same armour as a IS-2 and KT at vet 2 kappa

Which leads us to the core problem of this thread: The Panther sucks at doing what it was meant to excel at. At least in theory. And historically.

that perfectly sums up part of what i was trying to communicate with this thread.

personally, think the panthers low DPS is the issue here. Armor is excellent at 320 front, penetration is excellent, speed and accelaration appropriate, but the fire-rate too low. the panther fires every 7.38 seconds.

performance simply doesn't quite match the price-tag. a 175 fuel TD is supposed to wreck every other non-TD tank, only bowing to the heavies of call-ins(IS-2, pershing, ISU)

first, the panther can actually match any allied armor, medium or heavy, in a brawl. there's that famous in-game video of a pershing actually losing against a panther. I'm pretty sure the panther can match the is2 too as well.

and the panther is not a tank destroyer like the jackson or the sherman firefly.

the three mg are mediocre at best, but they still give the panther ability to kill infantry. The su85, firefly, and jackson are completely useless against infantry. Ironically the other Tank destroyer with the best anti-infantry capability is the stug.

the panther serve as "anchor" for the wehrmacht army. The combination of speed and durability give it excellent survivability, something the wehrmacht otherwise lack in their infantry and support weapon. It's basically there to distract the enemy while your glass cannon (grenadiers, pak) kill the infantry.

The panther is also the fastest tank in the game beside the cromwell. The panther actually have better acceleration versus the comet's higher top speed. This allow the panther to engage and disengage at will.

and the panther is not a tank destroyer like the jackson or the sherman firefly.

To me that directly translates to "don't bother building a Panther, it's not worth the cost and you have plenty alternatives for the same job.

Which leads us to the core problem of this thread: The Panther sucks at doing what it was meant to excel at. At least in theory. And historically.

Panther suck historically? The tank could kill any Allied vehicle at ranges over 800 meters, after the D model got sorted out and the shottrap and slow turret rotation got fixed, the Panther was a very capable machine that was feared by Allied tank crews, especially the Soviets.

In game, I think it is in a good place, requires some skill to use it, unlike in VCoH where you either bought vet 3 on your panthers and spammed them, or just got a panther battle group for 1000 mp. It seems to me that people think the Panther should win vs any Allied armor, just because it is a Panther. Which is a pretty flawed thought. You should support it with infantry and other at units, just as the Allied players do.

Panther suck historically? The tank could kill any Allied vehicle at ranges over 800 meters, after the D model got sorted out and the shottrap and slow turret rotation got fixed, the Panther was a very capable machine that was feared by Allied tank crews, especially the Soviets.

he said the panther doesn't perform as well as it is MEANT TO in theory/history, not that it is or was a total crap tank

Wasn't there a video of a panther soloing a zis gun with its machine guns?

And what would be so special about that? Everyone(tank with a turret) can circle a solo AT gun to death.

he said the panther doesn't perform as well as it is MEANT TO in theory/history, not that it is or was a total crap tank

My bad Still stand by my points on what Axis players expect from their Panthers though.

With a shit rof anything is possible. Pretty much THE value that makes me not build Panthers at all. The StuG dmg output is significantly higher and that for not even half the cost.

What is actual comet reload?

Since I've seen the historical performance being thrown around for the Panther, one must then take into account that the Comet was, for all intents and purpose, the British match to the Panther. In game, the Comet is a better out-of-the-box tank than the Panther, as befitting it's cost, but vets worse. Especially when compared to the OKW Panther.
TLR, Major thread problem seems to be OP expecting Panther to be unbeatable against its Allied match, as opposed to how it is now, in being relatively even.

What is actual comet reload?

mate, all stats are in the OP

its 6.32

As long as OKW has penalties it requires some OP units as crutch by design,if it doesn't have them..faction collapses by natural law of economics.
Some OKW units are just too fuel intensive,this is why u rarely see their light vehicles used..their MP cost should be increased and fuel cost decreased.
OKW panther fo its premium cost is just not worth it,it doesn't have DPS to kill stuff and raketen can't support you like wehr pak.
Jagdpanzer is much more reliable as it can answer allied TDs in kind -fire with fire.

I see the thread kinda turned to Panther's intended role in the meantime, but first we need to be clear on whether or not the cost thing was satisfactorily resolved.

Things Panther has:
- Speed,
- Accelleration
- Range
- Frontal armour higher than the Tiger.
- Fantastic veterancy bonuses, starting at level 1
- Tolerable DPS versus infantry (MGs)

Things Panther doesn't have:
- Good Rate of fire

And of course people complain about what? Its rate of fire.

My question is : what else do people want for 175 fuel, exactly?

Oh and OP, I see you are active in this thread. So, can you give me a reply to this?

Your argument has one crucial flaw: The Ostheer Panther. Does it cost 232 fuel? No? In fact it costs exactly as much as the OKW Panther does. This is a clear indicator that a unit of Panther's effectiveness is considered to be worth 175 fuel. Do you have a counterargument to this?