Panzer 4 penetration.

The tank currently feels highly ineffective and with addition of british heavy armour and now pershing plus unilateral increase in penetration on many allied AT options i believe requires a penetration buff to become useful again.110 penetration is utterly horrible,given what dirt cheap 60 range TDs like su-76 are getting.

allies gettin their own paks Kappa how beautiful. except usf Kappa

Why do people think that because a tank is German and if it doesn't roflstop everything in the game then it needs a buff

After PanzerIV buff, what will happen to T34 and Sherman? Evolving from useless to garbage?

This game is not Axis vs British game, please consider those situation unless you are a fanboy.

It didn't need pen previously because it was dealing with paper allied tanks, now it is matched against Cromwells and Comets which have decent armor and is clearly underwhelming against them. Buffing the pen would not change much in its performance against Sov and USF, so it should not be a problem.

Why do people think that because a tank is German and if it doesn't roflstop everything in the game then it needs a buff

Because it costs 15 fuel more yet hardly does better than a Sherman. Yet for 15 fuel more than the Panzer IV you get the Easy Eight which utterly dominates it. The Panzer IV is either overpriced or under-performing in relation to these units.

Because it costs 15 fuel more yet hardly does better than a Sherman. Yet for 15 fuel more than the Panzer IV you get the Easy Eight which utterly dominates it. The Panzer IV is either overpriced or under-performing in relation to these units.

The panzer 4 has the best scaling out of all of em.

Because it costs 15 fuel more yet hardly does better than a Sherman. Yet for 15 fuel more than the Panzer IV you get the Easy Eight which utterly dominates it. The Panzer IV is either overpriced or under-performing in relation to these units.

so a doctrinal expencive tank beats the non doctrinal Panzer 4 and it also costs more? sounds reasonable

on a side note all other medium tanks are mostly the same(sherman got only a penetration buff while t-34 became cheaper but delayed)

so nothing changed,if you expect yourPanzer 4 to penetrate Comets,Pershings or IS-2s and do everything then NOPE i must stop your dream there.

Tank was nerfed over and over, serves no purpose at all. Only Stugs can pen Pershing and Easy Eights, P4 gets penetrated by at guns, Captain and even Pack Howitzer.

Overnerfed, the unit it too slow to build in the USF 5 minute games, and if games go that long better off buying something else.(stugs tiger)

Wait, is the OP upset that a Medium tank cannot penetrate Allied Heavy tanks.... my god it's the buff Sherman pen threads all over again.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKlnjwzT1IruAZFb0EA-5pQ

so a doctrinal expencive tank beats the non doctrinal Panzer 4 and it also costs more? sounds reasonable

What about the 5 fuel difference between the Panzer IV J and Easy Eight? Yet the Easy Eight beats 3/4 times?

so nothing changed,if you expect your Panzer 4 to penetrate Comets,Pershings or IS-2s and do everything then NOPE i must stop your dream there.

Nothing changed of course, except the buffing of it's primary counterpart, triple buffing of an already superior unit, and addition of the British Forces and their army of superior tanks. But no nothing's changed.

so nothing changed,if you expect yourPanzer 4 to penetrate Comets,Pershings or IS-2s and do everything then NOPE i must stop your dream there.

The hilarious part is that the Panzer IV has issues trouble penetrating the rear armour of the Comet(180), Churchill(180) and IS-2(205) unless firing at point-blank. It's already slower that the other tanks except for blitzing or using the Encirclement breakthrough. Aren't mediums supposed to engage heavies when flanking? I guess we could toss more PIVs at it, but rear armour on quite a few tanks, KT included, should be re-examined so that flanking with mediums is better rewarded.

Onto the PIV vs doctrinal mediums, main issue that Someguy is pointing out that the standard M4 Sherman with AP and Cromwell vs the Panzer IV, while they will probably lose to the PIV head-on, it's not as one-sided as the E8 stomping the PIV into the ground thanks to its penetration and armour.

As for my opinion on the Panzer IV, no real problem with the tank. It's a good generalist that can help anchor the line and protect the Pak wall/support weapons from the superior British/American infantry and I would always take this tank over the Ostwind, even for the AI role as it can fight armour and shoot down the occasional plane with the pintle.

What about the 5 fuel difference between the Panzer IV J and Easy Eight? Yet the Easy Eight beats 3/4 times?

Your concern is that the doctrinal E8 that is more expensive in manpower and fuel than the PIVJ beats the PIVJ 3/4 of the time. Have you thought about taking your blinders off?

im for a pen buff.

Wait, is the OP upset that a Medium tank cannot penetrate Allied Heavy tanks.... my god it's the buff Sherman pen threads all over again.

I'm upset it fails to penetrate mediums like e8 regularly,as well failing to penetrate rear of heavies like is2 and comet.Its much too costly,Especially when u compare t-34/85 and e8 with 5-10 more fuel and FAR more strength.I also want to know how u justify su-76 performance for its cost while ur bashing p4.
It is atm a lacklustre and ineffective unit,that most wehr players ignore.

Newsflash:

T34s and shermans are also highly ineffective vs axis heavy armor.

You don't use medium tanks vs heavy tanks, you use TDs and ATGs with medium tanks protecting them from inf mainly.

If we leave it as it is stats wise, it needs a cost decrease.

I'm upset it fails to penetrate mediums like e8 regularly,as well failing to penetrate rear of heavies like is2 and comet.Its much too costly,Especially when u compare t-34/85 and e8 with 5-10 more fuel and FAR more strength.I also want to know how u justify su-76 performance for its cost while ur bashing p4.
It is atm a lacklustre and ineffective unit,that most wehr players ignore.

You do know the M4 Sherman base regularly bounces of the front of a Pzr 4. Most Whermact players ignore it because it's a General Purpose tank unlike the Panzer that is a dedicated tank fighter.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKlnjwzT1IruAZFb0EA-5pQ

You do know the M4 Sherman base regularly bounces of the front of a Pzr 4. Most Whermact players ignore it because it's a General Purpose tank unlike the Panzer that is a dedicated tank fighter.

The Panzer is a general purpose tank. The Stug is the dedicated tank fighter.

Newsflash:

T34s and shermans are also highly ineffective vs axis heavy armor.

You don't use medium tanks vs heavy tanks, you use TDs and ATGs with medium tanks protecting them from inf mainly.

Newsflash -No one builds mediums vs Heavy tanks.But you can't engage rampaging allied blobs with stugs.So acc to you if a medium tank is built earlier and later allied player brings out heavy tank its my fault?Panther is extremely difficult to get in competitive games.
Main issue is not that panzer 4 can't beat heavies,its that IT CAN'T EVEN PENETRATE REAR ARMOUR of heavies.
It bounces of OTHER MEDIUMS.Its almost as costly as e8/t-34/85 and loses hideously agianst these 2.
Worse penetration than lesser priced mediums like cromwell.

Just look at SU-76,currently broken unit.A tank destroyer dirt cheap with high penetration,60 range and free barrage.WORST of all it COUNTERS IT COUNTERS,can't remember how many times i see barrage out of fog of war killing my paks.Unit needs direct nerf.

What do you have to say about that?